Into the Night
Verified User
You aren't presenting any arguments.
Capitalism Is EVIL!
- Thread starter disobey
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Yakuda
Verified User
Capitalism has helped more people move out of poverty than any other political system in the history of mankind. To call it evil is to be stupid.
Yakuda
Verified User
That one is a one of a kind moron
Into the Night
Verified User
It is an economic system, not a form of government.
However, you are absolutely right. Capitalism not only brings people out of poverty, but it is capitalism that built cities out of the wilderness. It was capitalism that invented and modernized carriages. It was capitalism that brought the automobile and made them cheap enough for them to become commonplace. It is capitalism that created the computer, and made it cheap enough to put one not only in many homes, but made it cheap enough to put in your pocket (the cellphone!).
Capitalism built the trucks, trains, cars, and ships that we depend on today. It made the internet what it is today.
Capitalism busts up monopolies. Any company getting big enough to become a monopoly will soon face some little company with a better or more innovative product and will shoot the kneecaps off the larger company. Monopolies can only be sustained with government help.
Capitalism is the only way to create wealth. Indeed, socialism couldn't exist without it, since socialism is based on theft of wealth. Socialism must have someplace to steal wealth from.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Disobey has it backwards. Capitalism is the natural state of economic interaction. What is evil is socialism to a varying degree depending on the form it takes.
Capitalism in its most basic form is each person performing tasks and producing things that they want in excess of what they, themselves, need. That excess is then traded to others to accumulate wealth, or stuff, that makes them increasingly productive. In a capitalist economy, people can voluntarily pool their wealth and abilities to create a greater amount of output with value that can be used or traded. For those that have less or cannot provide for themselves, each individual with wealth decides what they might give. That is the basis of charity.
With socialism, or its more virulent cousin communism, human nature is denied in favor of forced contribution. In such a system you receive a base amount of goods, services, and wealth regardless of your input. Anything in excess of that can, to one degree or another, be taken by society to provide for those that don't produce. In a nutshell, socialism is forced altruism. That is, society expects you to work hard but willing give up the fruits of your labor to others in whole or part regardless of how slovenly and lazy those receiving it are.
It is criminally evil to forcibly rob the rich to give to the poor. Or, put another way steal the fruits of one man's labor to provide for another man who puts little or no effort in to his own welfare.
To make such a system work requires an increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial government to take from the productive to give to the unproductive. Charity dies in such a system as does any work ethic. Why work hard when it will just be stolen from you? Such systems also encourage by their actions cheating by those living in them.
There is nothing noble or just about socialism. It is an evil system designed to enrich the undeserving at the expense of the productive.
Capitalism in its most basic form is each person performing tasks and producing things that they want in excess of what they, themselves, need. That excess is then traded to others to accumulate wealth, or stuff, that makes them increasingly productive. In a capitalist economy, people can voluntarily pool their wealth and abilities to create a greater amount of output with value that can be used or traded. For those that have less or cannot provide for themselves, each individual with wealth decides what they might give. That is the basis of charity.
With socialism, or its more virulent cousin communism, human nature is denied in favor of forced contribution. In such a system you receive a base amount of goods, services, and wealth regardless of your input. Anything in excess of that can, to one degree or another, be taken by society to provide for those that don't produce. In a nutshell, socialism is forced altruism. That is, society expects you to work hard but willing give up the fruits of your labor to others in whole or part regardless of how slovenly and lazy those receiving it are.
It is criminally evil to forcibly rob the rich to give to the poor. Or, put another way steal the fruits of one man's labor to provide for another man who puts little or no effort in to his own welfare.
To make such a system work requires an increasingly authoritarian and dictatorial government to take from the productive to give to the unproductive. Charity dies in such a system as does any work ethic. Why work hard when it will just be stolen from you? Such systems also encourage by their actions cheating by those living in them.
There is nothing noble or just about socialism. It is an evil system designed to enrich the undeserving at the expense of the productive.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Welcome to JPP.
Moore nails it. Capitalism has it's very dark side. But it also has a good side. We should try to maximize the good side and minimize the dark side by having greater government regulation of capitalism.
Government is pretty unpopular as it is. If we abandoned capitalism all together and let government run everything the resentment meter would be pegged. J6 mindsets would not have stopped at the Capitol.
Lao Tse
Verified User
of course, fiat currency banker/state Keynesian fascism has forever changed the nature of what we call "capitalism". Trade is one thing. central banker Keynesian totalitarianism and the brainwashing of all the citizenry is something else.
Lao Tse
Verified User
work creates wealth, it is fiat currency totalitarianism that enables parasitism.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
I've been through this thread from the beginning. I'd like to engage in a discussion of capitalism, it's pluses and minuses, how to incorporate it best into a national economic system, etc, BUT! I am not into getting personal with the other voices in the discussion. That is *so* not where it's at. I don't see anything productive accomplished by a bunch of emotional name calling.
Capitalism is a wonderful engine of creativity and productivity. But it also tends to create winners and losers. It doesn't have to. Having a relatively few fabulously rich and powerful people, and the rest of society feeling left behind, is a recipe for resentment. The problem is whether people feel appreciated or not. The rich and powerful create their own sense of appreciation but the workers often do not feel like their contributions are appreciated.
Generally, capitalism only pays workers what is required to prevent them from leaving. All of their productivity generates far more profit than what is divided among the workers. The rest goes into the pockets of the owners and investors who did nothing but risk some of the wealth they already have. It takes government to properly manage that system so owners and investors get a fair return for their investments, and more security, and the workers feel more appreciated for their contribution.
Corporations should be set up very differently than the current system. They should be government regulated worker cooperatives. A well organized society should have a system in place that makes everyone feel like their contribution to the whole is properly acknowledged and appreciated, and they are paid enough to have a happy secure life. All jobs have to be done, so all jobs are important to the whole. Germany has a good idea of requiring worker representation on corporate boards. The ultimate best way to utilize capitalism has yet to be perfected. We can certainly do better than what we have now, which is the rich and powerful taking advantage of their power to create resentment and disgruntlement.
We should strive for a system that utilizes everyone's talents to the fullest potential, and makes most members of society proud to do their part.
Capitalism is a wonderful engine of creativity and productivity. But it also tends to create winners and losers. It doesn't have to. Having a relatively few fabulously rich and powerful people, and the rest of society feeling left behind, is a recipe for resentment. The problem is whether people feel appreciated or not. The rich and powerful create their own sense of appreciation but the workers often do not feel like their contributions are appreciated.
Generally, capitalism only pays workers what is required to prevent them from leaving. All of their productivity generates far more profit than what is divided among the workers. The rest goes into the pockets of the owners and investors who did nothing but risk some of the wealth they already have. It takes government to properly manage that system so owners and investors get a fair return for their investments, and more security, and the workers feel more appreciated for their contribution.
Corporations should be set up very differently than the current system. They should be government regulated worker cooperatives. A well organized society should have a system in place that makes everyone feel like their contribution to the whole is properly acknowledged and appreciated, and they are paid enough to have a happy secure life. All jobs have to be done, so all jobs are important to the whole. Germany has a good idea of requiring worker representation on corporate boards. The ultimate best way to utilize capitalism has yet to be perfected. We can certainly do better than what we have now, which is the rich and powerful taking advantage of their power to create resentment and disgruntlement.
We should strive for a system that utilizes everyone's talents to the fullest potential, and makes most members of society proud to do their part.
Have you ever read The General Theory? How about Man, Economy, and State? I consider these two seminal works to understanding economics.
Lao Tse
Verified User
I know fiat currency is totalitarianism.
that's what you need to get through your fascist brain.
or explain how it isn't.
Genetics creates "winners and losers."
Capitalism is merely an economic reality of free people exchanging value for value. Under Capitalism, you trade your effort and talent to others for what they - and they alone deem it to be worth. The use of a marker, a medium of exchange, what the classical economist Jean-Baptiste Say termed "fiat" or in English "marker" currency. Precious metals were long used as fiat currency - and yes they are fiat currency as they are a common medium of exchange rather than direct barter - which simply doesn't work.
Capitalism cannot "create winners and losers" as it is simply a recognition of free and uncoerced trade between people. Those who are bigger, stronger, smarter, and more motivated will do better than those who are not - they will be the winners. Blame genetics and evolution, capitalism has nothing to do with it.
Then "no," you've not read Keynes not Rothbard.
Perhaps an introductory to macro-economics would be in order. Do they have night schools or community colleges in your area?
Consider this, most reasoning adults would agree that voting for representative and leaders is the most fair method of choosing them. Yet democrats cheat in every election and corrupt the results. Does that mean that voting is totalitarianism?
I don't think you even grasp what fiat currency is. But what is your proposal for an alternative? Instead of money, how would people exchange goods?
Lao Tse
Verified User
THe ability to print all the money out of thin air is indeed a totalitarian power, your mountains of lies aside.
You ducked the challenge.
What is your proposal for the exchange of goods rather than money, currency?
Lao Tse
Verified User
I recommend only a sound currency and in lieu of that, barter is better than Keynesian totalitarianism.
Into the Night
Verified User
Communism is a subset of socialism. It is one of the major forms of socialism. Two other major forms are fascism and slavery.
ALL are based on theft of wealth.
Otherwise, you have it right!
precious metals are not inherently fiat
fiat means by decree.
nobody has to decree metals have value for metals to have value