Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

LOL No doubt some are like that. Some may just be playing devil's advocate for their students to push them out of their comfort zone. There's been a few times on JPP where, during academic discussions, I began wondering if someone was working on a thesis and needed ideas and/or discussion to kick-start their paper. LOL

I neither know for sure whether or not free wills exists, nor do I care very much.
The reason I doubt it is in no way philosophical.

Science is about cause and effect,
so if free will actually exists,
nobody can explain how it actually works.

It's best to admit that we just don't know for sure.
Whether or not we care?
That might be a philosophical issue.

I'm fine with being a "meat robot" but others,
the ones who believe that they have souls and not just soles,
may be uncomfortable about it.:cool:
 
I neither know for sure whether or not free wills exists, nor do I care very much.
The reason I doubt it is in no way philosophical.

Science is about cause and effect,
so if free will actually exists,
nobody can explain how it actually works.

It's best to admit that we just don't know for sure.
Whether or not we care?
That might be a philosophical issue.

I'm fine with being a "meat robot" but others may be uncomfortable about it.:cool:
This entire thread has been about how it works: dogs and other animals react to stimuli. An average human being can consider their options and the consequences of exercising those options. That's free will in a nutshell.
 
This entire thread has been about how it works: dogs and other animals react to stimuli. An average human being can consider their options and the consequences of exercising those options. That's free will in a nutshell.

How is a human different than a dog other than having a higher capacity cerebrum?
That's the ONLY way a dog is different from a wolf, genetically.

You say, Oom, that a human being can consider his/her options,
but that in no way explains how free will would exist, even if it's true and we have free will.

Explain in scientific terms the bio-electrical functional difference in the brain between reacting and choosing--
that's what we need to be able to do before we know anything about it.
For what it's worth, I've personally witnessed dogs weighing options, by the way.

Most people who want to be certain about free will
do so on the basis of a philosophical bias--
at least that's how it appears to me.
 
How is a human different than a dog other than having a higher capacity cerebrum?
That's the ONLY way a dog is different from a wolf, genetically.

You say, Oom, that a human being can consider his/her options,
but that in no way explains how free will would exist, even if it's true and we have free will.

Explain in scientific terms the bio-electrical functional difference in the brain between reacting and choosing--
that's what we need to be able to do before we know anything about it.

Most people who want to be certain about free will
do so on the basis of a philosophical bias--
at least that's how it appears to me.

Not just higher capacity. A completely different ability. Do you think your dog stares at you and wonders why he has you and not the hot chick down the street? No. If the dog is thinking anything it's thinking it's hungry and you're the source of its food.

Like all animals, it's living in the moment, not the future or the past as humans can do.
 
Not just higher capacity. A completely different ability. Do you think your dog stares at you and wonders why he has you and not the hot chick down the street? No. If the dog is thinking anything it's thinking it's hungry and you're the source of its food.

Like all animals, it's living in the moment, not the future or the past as humans can do.

OK, it's a completely different ability,
but we'll know that it exists for sure when we can explain how it works.

Merely believing that we're observing this phenomenon doesn't rise to the required burden from my perspective.
I guess that's the gist of our difference on the matter.
 
OK, it's a completely different ability,
but we'll know that it exists for sure when we can explain how it works.

Merely believing that we're observing this phenomenon doesn't rise to the required burden from my perspective.
I guess that's the gist of our difference on the matter.
It works as described; assessing options and choosing a course of action...even if the assessment and decision are heavily flawed such as demonstrated on 1/6.
 
Absolutely. Our subjective experience and perception makes us believe that we are in the drivers seat, when we're actually anything but in the drivers seat. Our brains are constantly looking forward and predicting what is going to happen next, so at the point that you believe you are making a decision, the decision was actually made by the brain and you are just being made aware of it.

There's also the reality that many people don't want to believe that there is no self and there is no free will. I'm sure it can be very destabilizing.

But, yes, my opinion is supported by science:

Our Brains Make Up Our Minds Before We Know It
Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.
Posted December 21, 2020 | Reviewed by Matt Huston

We like to think that when it comes to our daily decisions, we’re the ones running the show. For example, when you opt for the Matcha Green Tea Latte instead of your usual Cinnamon Dulce Latte, you’d like to believe that you made the conscious decision to switch. But what if that purchase intention was already made before you became aware of your decision to buy it?

Philosophers have argued about the concept of free will for thousands of years. In recent decades, neuroscientists have joined in on the debate. Some argue that our awareness of decisions may merely be a neurochemical afterthought, without any influence at all on one’s actions. These cognitive scientists cite brain imaging studies revealing that the decision-making process begins before a person is able to realize it.

Startling evidence to support belief in the role of the unconscious in decision-making was demonstrated in an experiment by a group of scientists led by John-Dylan Haynes from the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany. Using fMRI brain scans, these researchers were able to predict participants’ decisions as many as seven seconds before the subjects had consciously made the decisions. As the researchers concluded in Nature Neuroscience, “Many processes in the brain occur automatically and without involvement of our consciousness. This prevents our mind from being overloaded by simple routine tasks. But when it comes to decisions, we tend to assume they are made by our conscious mind. This is questioned by our current findings.”

The decision studied was a simple choice of whether or not to push a button with one’s left or right hand. Participants were free to make the decision whenever they wanted, but they had to indicate at what point they made the decision in their mind. By observing micropatterns of brain activity, the researchers were able to predict the subjects’ choices before they indicated knowing the choices themselves. “Your decisions are strongly prepared by the brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,” says Haynes. This unprecedented prediction of a free decision raises profound questions about the nature of free will and conscious choice.

But because this study involved a very simple and less reasoned choice, Haynes and his team decided to explore whether or not these observations would generalize to more complex and considered choices. In a follow-up study, researchers presented a series of numbers on a screen and asked subjects to make a decision to either add or subtract two numbers. While participants were in the process of deciding, the researchers used fMRI brain imaging to decode and predict responses based on brain activity. The researchers argued that this task was a more realistic model of everyday decision-making as it involved more abstract intentions.

Similar to the earlier experiment, the researchers were able to predict the subjects’ choices based on brain activity up to four seconds before research participants were consciously aware of their choices. As published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the report concludes, “Our results suggest that unconscious preparation of free choices is not restricted to motor preparation. Instead, decisions at multiple scales of abstraction evolve from the dynamics of preceding brain activity.”

Haynes is quick to point out, “Of course a single experiment is not going to rewrite two and half thousand years of thinking about free will. I like to think of this as a starting block.” But by better understanding our volitions, experiments such as these may provide important practical applications. For example, the research may have implications for informing consumers to make better choices or informing legal systems and juries to better deliberate about involuntary and voluntary acts. In addition, it may shed light on illnesses like schizophrenia and Parkinson’s disease, where patients feel as if their actions are not the result of their choosing.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...g/202012/our-brains-make-our-minds-we-know-it

I've read about the research which suggests many of our decisions are made subconsciously a few nanoseconds before we act on them conciously.

That doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument that choice does not exist. Our subconscious is part of our mental faculties which have been honed and shaped by our preferences, our interests, our experiences, our training. It is not a Master Puppeteer manipulating us as meat puppets. And a few nanoseconds is hardly the kind of stuff that compels people to a transform a complete revision of their view of reality and experience.

My father, a concert violinist, felt like his fingers had little brains because they could react by muscle memory to musical inspiration without conscious input. That was a consequence of willful and deliberate training and commitment.

But I am quite certain he never felt like a meat puppet dangling from strings tethered to a Master Puppeteer
 
It works as described; assessing options and choosing a course of action...even if the assessment and decision are heavily flawed such as demonstrated on 1/6.

It's described as it's observed, Oom, and said description does not include a scientific explanation.
If action is not cause and effect, then it's supernatural.
All things natural have a direct cause with no choice involved.
A ball doesn't choose to roll down a hill.

By separating our species from the others in the animal kingdom,
you're implying that we're supernatural....something special

That's ok to believe but it's impossible to know.
In my particular case, I don't believe it either,
but that's neither here nor there.
 
I neither know for sure whether or not free wills exists, nor do I care very much.
The reason I doubt it is in no way philosophical.

Science is about cause and effect,
so if free will actually exists,
nobody can explain how it actually works.

It's best to admit that we just don't know for sure.
Whether or not we care?
That might be a philosophical issue.

I'm fine with being a "meat robot" but others,
the ones who believe that they have souls and not just soles,
may be uncomfortable about it.:cool:

20th century physics showed that our rock solid belief in cause and effect had serious holes in it.

Uncertainty is built into the fabric of reality at the atomic scale, and uncaused causes have been experimentally verified as a quantum reality.
 
How do you know what your brain is doing. And why mystical force is making its decisions? You cannot answer.

I don't know what my brain is doing at any given point. I know it's doing a lot behind the scenes, but I have absolutely no visibility to it.

There's no mystical force making decisions. Your brain makes decisions at a neurological level based on what it knows from prior external influences.
 
20th century physics showed that our rock solid belief in cause and effect had serious holes in it.

Uncertainty is built into the fabric of reality at the atomic scale, and uncaused causes have been experimentally verified as a quantum reality.


They have these logic tests.
They're not intelligence tests.
They instead test one's ability to employ LINEAR logic.

At work, I was in the first percentile taking this test.
I can't prove that the test is valid, truthfully, but it is accepted in industry.

Esoteric concepts of physics notwithstanding, biologically,
logic is not on free will's side with our present levels of understanding brain function.
 
ZenMode said:
Our Brains
I've read about the research which suggests many of our decisions are made subconsciously a few nanoseconds before we act on them conciously.

That doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument that choice does not exist. Our subconscious is part of our mental faculties which have been honed and shaped by our preferences, our interests, our experiences, our training. It is not a Master Puppeteer manipulating us as meat puppets. And a few nanoseconds is hardly the kind of stuff that compels people to a transform a complete revision of their view of reality and experience.

My father, a concert violinist, felt like his fingers had little brains because they could react by muscle memory to musical inspiration without conscious input. That was a consequence of willful and deliberate training and commitment.

But I am quite certain he never felt like a meat puppet dangling from strings tethered to a Master Puppeteer
Key phrase being "Our brains". The naysayers want to claim it's not their responsibility, but then use evidence that it is, indeed, their responsibility.

It's a good article, but I think Mode is leaping to conclusions by denying he has input into any decision. Why would a person switch lattes? Magic? A memory about Green Tea? The recognition that they wanted to cut their calories and knowledge that the Green Tea is 100 calories less?

What happens next time? Do they stick with the green tea or go back to the cinnamon? As the link below notes, our unconscious mind covers a lot of territory but it also points out how people (inferring normal people) can access, use and change our unconscious minds because, conscious or not, it's still "our brain".

https://practicalpie.com/unconscious-mind/
Unconscious Mind (Definition + Purpose)
​The unconscious mind includes:

  1. Id: basic instincts (including the death-instinct and sex-instinct)
  2. Superego: desires
  3. Experiences from childhood
  4. Trauma
  5. Aggression
  6. Other information...

....So we use all of these mechanisms to push trauma into the unconscious. And yet, the unconscious still influences our behavior, decisions, and our personality. Until we can recognize these influences, we are stuck performing harmful behaviors in a never-ending pattern. This could be getting angry easily, experiencing anxiety, or making impulse decisions.
 
It's described as it's observed, Oom, and said description does not include a scientific explanation.
If action is not cause and effect, then it's supernatural.
All things natural have a direct cause with no choice involved.
A ball doesn't choose to roll down a hill.

By separating our species from the others in the animal kingdom,
you're implying that we're supernatural....something special

That's ok to believe but it's impossible to know.
In my particular case, I don't believe it either,
but that's neither here nor there.

Fine. Don't believe you have Free Will until Anthony Fauci confirms it for you. IMO, results count. The speeder who is caught doing 90 in a 65 will be prosecuted for speeding regardless if they believe they have free will or not. Better if they accept they have free will and choose not to break the law.
 
Key phrase being "Our brains". The naysayers want to claim it's not their responsibility, but then use evidence that it is, indeed, their responsibility.


Would you at least admit, Oom, that it is your very strong PREFERENCE that we have free will?

I absolutely don't care, one way or the other. I honestly don't.

Could this difference be at least one factor in our arriving at different conclusions?
 
Would you at least admit, Oom, that it is your very strong PREFERENCE that we have free will?

I absolutely don't care, one way or the other. I honestly don't.

Could this difference be at least one factor in our arriving at different conclusions?
I choose to accept I have choices. You, Perry PhD and Mode choose to believe you have no choice.
 
I choose to accept I have choices. You, Perry PhD and Mode choose to believe you have no choice.


I don't understand how my choice works if I indeed have it,
and until I can,
it's hard to believe that something other than cause and effect exists.

You assume that I'm choosing anything.
Your conclusion is part of your explanation--this is circular logic by definition.

You say results matter.
They certainly do, but so does linear logic on a purely academic level.

That's my actual position as best as I can explain it.

In any case, it's a grand epiphany to neither of us that we're very different people.

I don't know for sure who Perry Phd and Mode are--I'd be guessing--
so it's hard to agree or disagree that I'm in accord with them.
 
I don't understand how my choice works if I indeed have it,
and until I can,
it's hard to believe that something other than cause and effect exists.


You assume that I'm choosing anything.
Your conclusion is part of your explanation--this is circular logic by definition.

You say results matter.
They certainly do, but so does linear logic on a purely academic level.

That's my actual position as best as I can explain it.

In any case, it's a grand epiphany to neither of us that we're very different people.

I don't know for sure who Perry Phd and Mode are--I'd be guessing--
so it's hard to agree or disagree that I'm in accord with them.

Do you have to know how your car or TV works before you use them? Or do you just accept it and move forward?
 
Key phrase being "Our brains". The naysayers want to claim it's not their responsibility, but then use evidence that it is, indeed, their responsibility.

It's a good article, but I think Mode is leaping to conclusions by denying he has input into any decision. Why would a person switch lattes? Magic? A memory about Green Tea? The recognition that they wanted to cut their calories and knowledge that the Green Tea is 100 calories less?

What happens next time? Do they stick with the green tea or go back to the cinnamon? As the link below notes, our unconscious mind covers a lot of territory but it also points out how people (inferring normal people) can access, use and change our unconscious minds because, conscious or not, it's still "our brain".

https://practicalpie.com/unconscious-mind/
Unconscious Mind (Definition + Purpose)

I definitely feel like my subconscious is part of me, part of my mental faculties.

It has been shaped and modified by preferences, experiences, memory, education, deliberate self reflection, training, introspection.

I have never felt is it is some independent Master Puppeteer to whom I am tethered helplessly by puppet strings.
 
Do you have to know how your car or TV works before you use them? Or do you just accept it and move forward?


There are practical discussions and there are theoretical discussions.
Both are worth having to some people, some times.

I can drive my car or turn on my A/V system, get the result that I expect,
and then admit that there's probably a reason why that happened
but I have no fucking idea what it is.

I can understand the car dynamics a little more than the A/V system
but I would not claim to be an authority on either.

Also, I can move forward practically without losing interest in the academic considerations of the dynamic experienced.
I also love to eat donuts and then not care why, even though I'm a few tons over my old boxing weight.
That's how I am with things--I either care or don't care enough to bother thinking about them,
and even that's dependent on the moment.
It's almost as if I have no choice.:laugh:
 
I don't know what my brain is doing at any given point. I know it's doing a lot behind the scenes, but I have absolutely no visibility to it.

There's no mystical force making decisions. Your brain makes decisions at a neurological level based on what it knows from prior external influences.

You refuse to state how the brain makes decisions.
 
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