Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

Cypress said:
I definitely feel like my subconscious is part of me, part of my mental faculties.

It has been shaped and modified by preferences, experiences, memory, education, deliberate self reflection, training, introspection.

I have never felt is it is some independent Master Puppeteer to whom I am tethered helplessly by puppet strings.
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Good on subconscious. As the bottom link discusses, there are techniques for contacting our subconscious but, IMO, it's more about aligning our conscious with our subconscious. There are subtle hints about that in the link. Regardless if it's quitting smoking, losing weight or training for a competition, ensuring that both our conscious and subconscious are aligned and working together is a key part to success.

The first link discusses more about how our subsconscious is both holistic and non-verbal, it uses symbols, imagery and emotions/feelings.

Text on forums is one of the worst forms of communication due to the lack of body language, facial expressions, inflection, etc. It's one reason why emojis or memes are good supplements to the text. Still not the same as being in person, but better. Just using emojis or memes by themselves isn't much better than text alone. It's using both that helps convey a message.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-flux/201301/the-inner-language-of-the-subconscious
The Inner Language of the Subconscious
A picture is worth a thousand words.
  • When a person accesses their subconscious, they are released from the confines of their logical, practical mind.
  • The subconscious utilizes symbolism and imagery to express itself.
  • Becoming more aware of the world of images and symbols can shift the mindset of a culture.


...What is so poignant here is that words are unnecessary to communicate or convey a message. The symbol, the representational picture or image, conveys the complete thought, concept, or ideal without the use of words to describe it; the proverbial, “a picture is worth a thousand words.” This idea is tremendously powerful, for the way we “talk” to ourselves, our inner language, and the way we know who we are does not come from words, but rather from the timeless source within that knows who we are.

A brief tutorial, if you don’t know this already: The left hemisphere of the brain controls most of the neuromuscular and motor functioning of the right side. The right hemisphere controls the left side. But there is a huge difference as to the quality and character of each hemisphere’s activity. The left hemisphere is largely involved with logical, analytic thinking, as in verbal and mathematical functions, while the right hemisphere is largely responsible for orientation in space, body image, recognition of faces, and artistic efforts.
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https://www.drnorthrup.com/train-your-mind-to-lose-weight/
Train Your Mind to Lose Weight
12 Strategies to Lose Excess Weight Permanently
 
NiftyNiblick said:
There are practical discussions and there are theoretical discussions.
Both are worth having to some people, some times.

I can drive my car or turn on my A/V system, get the result that I expect,
and then admit that there's probably a reason why that happened
but I have no fucking idea what it is.

I can understand the car dynamics a little more than the A/V system
but I would not claim to be an authority on either.

Also, I can move forward practically without losing interest in the academic considerations of the dynamic experienced.
I also love to eat donuts and then not care why, even though I'm a few tons over my old boxing weight.
That's how I am with things--I either care or don't care enough to bother thinking about them,
and even that's dependent on the moment.
It's almost as if I have no choice.:laugh:
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Like eating donuts or smoking, people can choose to let their body run "autopilot". They can scratch their heel without looking or thinking about it. OTOH, they can consciously look over their body for ticks after a walk in the woods. It's a matter of choice including the choice to not choose, but just react. People who are angry a lot, not only have mental issues, but are not thinking about their choices. They are simply reacting to perceived problems.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Good on subconscious. As the bottom link discusses, there are techniques for contacting our subconscious but, IMO, it's more about aligning our conscious with our subconscious. There are subtle hints about that in the link. Regardless if it's quitting smoking, losing weight or training for a competition, ensuring that both our conscious and subconscious are aligned and working together is a key part to success.

The first link discusses more about how our subsconscious is both holistic and non-verbal, it uses symbols, imagery and emotions/feelings.

Text on forums is one of the worst forms of communication due to the lack of body language, facial expressions, inflection, etc. It's one reason why emojis or memes are good supplements to the text. Still not the same as being in person, but better. Just using emojis or memes by themselves isn't much better than text alone. It's using both that helps convey a message.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-flux/201301/the-inner-language-of-the-subconscious
The Inner Language of the Subconscious
A picture is worth a thousand words.



https://www.drnorthrup.com/train-your-mind-to-lose-weight/
Train Your Mind to Lose Weight
12 Strategies to Lose Excess Weight Permanently
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That's a good way of putting it. I've never thought our subconscious was some kind of exotic puppet master acting independently of conciousness, our self discipline, and our control.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
They have these logic tests.
They're not intelligence tests.
They instead test one's ability to employ LINEAR logic.

At work, I was in the first percentile taking this test.
I can't prove that the test is valid, truthfully, but it is accepted in industry.

Esoteric concepts of physics notwithstanding, biologically,
logic is not on free will's side with our present levels of understanding brain function.
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That's fine.
Conciousness is a mystery to science, and there's no way this question can be settled with precision and certainty.

Absent any concrete scientific evidence, I tend to trust my sensory perceptions.

Every physical and psychological experience I have, every intuition about the fabric of human existence I have, points to the reality of the freedom to choose.

If someone wants to provide me concrete scientific proof, a real scientific consensus, that our self evident perceptions are nothing but illusion, I would be willing to reconsider.
 
Cypress said:
You obviously weren't aware of this, otherwise you wouldn't have burst into the thread giggling and chuckling about philosophical bullshit.
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I will level with you: given that you, by your own admission, only have a high school chemistry level this all feels like you just like the sound of it and it's weird. This is what new agers do all the time...and it's what religious people do with the concept of "God". They plug the stuff that defies explanation (to themselves) into all the mystery around QM or "God" or whatever. But ultimately it isn't of much value since it doesn't really rely on much actual QM (or theology in the case of "God") but acts as safe harbor for the mysteris.
 
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Cypress said:
I definitely feel like my subconscious is part of me, part of my mental faculties.

It has been shaped and modified by preferences, experiences, memory, education, deliberate self reflection, training, introspection.

I have never felt is it is some independent Master Puppeteer to whom I am tethered helplessly by puppet strings.
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Seriously, watch the Nova episodes recently aired about the Brain. Specifically the episode "Who's In Charge?"

It's pretty trippy to realize that science is zeroing in on consciousness and it may not be as pretty a picture as we fantasized. But then we are looking at it from inside, not outside. And that makes all the difference in the world.
 
BidenPresident said:
What exactly are those "musings?" Prove you are not a troll and discuss an idea.
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Musings that there is some ineffible "self" that is separate from the emergent properties of network of physical neurons. And musings that we have "free will" when, indeed, many of our actions may be undertaken without a free will component.

Those musings.
 
BidenPresident said:
You refuse to state how the brain makes decisions.
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Because I don't know the exact science behind it. Various types of brain scanning technologies can show when brains are doing things, like making decisions, but I don't think anyone truly understands the "how" of how signals traveling across the brain, from synapse to synapse works.
 
ZenMode said:
Because I don't know the exact science behind it. Various types of brain scanning technologies can show when brains are doing things, like making decisions, but I don't think anyone truly understands the "how" of how signals traveling across the brain, from synapse to synapse works.
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So, you are speculating. Question: Why would a brain want chocolate ice cream rather than vanilla?
 
Cypress said:
I've read about the research which suggests many of our decisions are made subconsciously a few nanoseconds before we act on them conciously.

That doesn't strike me as a very compelling argument that choice does not exist.
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In any given moment, choices exist. I've never said they don't.
Our subconscious is part of our mental faculties which have been honed and shaped by our preferences, our interests, our experiences, our training.
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I agree.
It is not a Master Puppeteer manipulating us as meat puppets. And a few nanoseconds is hardly the kind of stuff that compels people to a transform a complete revision of their view of reality and experience.
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If a scientist can tell you what you were going to choose, before you consciously new what you were going to choose, that seems to be pretty compelling evidence for the fact that our brain is controlling things and we, our conscious mind, are downstream from all of the true activity and decision making.
My father, a concert violinist, felt like his fingers had little brains because they could react by muscle memory to musical inspiration without conscious input. That was a consequence of willful and deliberate training and commitment.

But I am quite certain he never felt like a meat puppet dangling from strings tethered to a Master Puppeteer
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Right. People feel like they have free will. People feel like they are the conscious author of their thoughts and intentions. There's just no evidence for it because a) there is no self to sit outside of our individual stream of conscious thought that would have the ability to create thoughts and intentions and filter/moderate our thoughts and b) we have no control or visibility of the inner functions of our brain where all thoughts, intentions and choices originate. It all just happens and we, our conscious selves, exist at the end of the process. We are not a self. We are only the stream of consciousness that is generated by our brain. There is no "I" that is controlling the neurological functions in our brain to create thoughts or intentions or make choices.
 
BidenPresident said:
So, you are speculating. Question: Why would a brain want chocolate ice cream rather than vanilla?
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People who truly study brain activity speculate a lot because there are so many unknowns. But there are somethings that are known, whether they're known based on scientific research or can be subjectively experienced by paying attention to your own experience. I've covered those ad nauseam in the other thread.

A brain wouldn't want a particular flavor of ice cream. But a brain, based on past experience, does recognize a situation where a decision has to be made, whether it be chocolate, vanilla or no ice cream. If the decision is to not have any ice cream, there is no subsequent choice about flavors.
 
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ZenMode said:
People who truly study brain activity speculate a lot because there are so many unknowns. But there are somethings that are known, whether they're known based on scientific research or can be subjectively experienced by paying attention to your own experience. I've covered those ad nauseam in the other thread.

A brain wouldn't want a particular flavor of ice cream. But, a brain, based on past experience, does recognize a situation where a decision has to be made, whether it be chocolate, vanilla or no ice cream. If the decision is to not have any ice cream, there is no subsequent choice about flavors.
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Why would the brain care about eating ice cream?
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
I will level with you: given that you, by your own admission, only have a high school chemistry level this all feels like you just like the sound of it and it's weird. This is what new agers do all the time...and it's what religious people do with the concept of "God". They plug the stuff that defies explanation (to themselves) into all the mystery around QM or "God" or whatever. But ultimately it isn't of much value since it doesn't really rely on much actual QM (or theology in the case of "God") but acts as safe harbor for the mysteris.
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^^ Just like the first grade girl trying too hard to shoehorn in on the conversation between adults.

I accept your tacit confession that you never heard of research pertaining to conciousness operating on a quantum level, and were foolish to jump the gun LOL'ing and calling it new age philosophical bullshit.


You can search until the cows come home, but you will never find a post of mine saying my only exposure to chemistry was a high school class.
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
Seriously, watch the Nova episodes recently aired about the Brain. Specifically the episode "Who's In Charge?"

It's pretty trippy to realize that science is zeroing in on consciousness and it may not be as pretty a picture as we fantasized. But then we are looking at it from inside, not outside. And that makes all the difference in the world.
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I watched it, Perry. What struck you the most about it? Did you watch it?
 
Doc Dutch said:
I watched it, Perry. What struck you the most about it? Did you watch it?
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So I watched ten minutes of the last segments, and there's nothing particularly trippy and nothing I haven't heard before.

They made the point that the brain's neural network and the subconscious is still "you", which is what we have been saying for three weeks.

Nothing trippy at all in the reporting that much of life is unscripted and unplanned, and the emotions and reactions we have aren't neccessarily scripted, planned, or completely in our control.

Turning off the decision-making frontal precortex and getting in tune with your intuition or subconscious improves musical ability, creativity, sports performance. Nothing trippy there. Anyone who has learned to play piano or became good at tennis knows you have to let go of concious focus and let trained intuition and muscle memory take over.

This production might be moderately interesting to reasonably intelligent laypersons. But there was nothing trippy about it. I've seen much better productions and videos on conciousness.
 
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