ZenMode
Well-known member
Thanks for admitting your brain can make choices.
That's all I've been saying. Your brain makes choices. Your brain is the only thing making choices. There is no "you" making choices.
Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
That's all I've been saying. Your brain makes choices. Your brain is the only thing making choices. There is no "you" making choices.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
You = your brain. Mentally ill, retarded or other human defectives are less functional.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Where will you be in 10 years, Perry? Homeless or dead? Living with Mason and Jack in a refrigerator box?
Classy.
I like how you kind of get a thrill imagining me committing suicide. Oh I'm sure you'll deny such thinking but it shows in the fact that you raised the issue now several times.
What if I actually were prone to suicidal thoughts? Did you ever think about that? What if your bullying on here were to tip me over the edge? You and Cypress seem quite convinced I'm mentally ill yet you CONTINUE to bully and harrass.
I even tried to drop the whole hate thing with Cypress but he refused.
I'm genuinely curious why you, a supposed psychology-trained adult, would talk so glibly about suicide of others. Yet here you are.
Now you're also bringing in insults against my dead mom.
You are a treat.
If you HONESTLY think me mentally ill then you are truly evil for doing your best to trigger the mentally ill in very dark directions. I doubt even YOU are that evil. But I've been surprised at how low you will go in the past so I shouldn't be too surprised if I were incorrect.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
No, Perry, I don't. It's a prediction for you because that's where you are headed, son. I've seen it before. Severely mentally ill people are headed for homelessness or suicide. In your case, I suspect homelessness is much more likely. The rest of your post confirms my viewpoint.
Your ally on this thread Perry/Cardinal/Jank suggested everyone watch a PBS Nova special on conciousness, in which the documentary explicitly said the brain's neural network and the subconscious is unequivocally "you".
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
You are one sick bastard. I feel sorry for you. I hope things work out OK for you.
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
Which makes it an emergent property. No necessity for a "soul" or some ineffible "you" that exists separate from the neural network.
A lot of people find that unsettling...they wish to have a sense of self that is somehow apart from the mere physical. This is how religious thought works. It requires an essence that exists beyond the physical.
For those of us who are not so bound the concept of the "self" as an emergent property of a physical neural network is more understandable.
The more difficult part, though, is the idea that the physical brain (neuron network) takes training (like an AI) and formulates responses to given stimuli sufficient that the brain can react BEFORE the neuron network creates a justification for the action. The idea that our sense of "free will" and agency arises AFTER THE FACT is very interesting. This aligns nicely with the understanding that most of our thinking arises subconsciously.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Notice the demeanor, claims and behavior of those who deny they have responsibility for themselves compared to those who accept they are responsible for themselves.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Sure. If you're going to identify some part of your body as "you", it makes sense to say the brain, right? You, that you believe is in the drivers seat, aren't your skin, arms, fingers, etc.
Also, from a legal perspective, "you" are the accountable for the decisions your brain makes.... but there is no "you" that is pulling the strings for your brain/thoughts, etc. Your brain is pulling the strings and part of what it is doing is creating thoughts that cause actions, but "you" have no control over it because there is no separate "you" in your brain and there's no mystical religious soul.
What we feel is "you" is our unique stream of consciousness, but we can only experience what our brain pushes into that consciousness, there is no self that is creating the consciousness.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Who is claiming "you" has to have a soul? Not me. Who is claiming "you" is separate from the physical system that is our brains? Not me. I've always held that "you" is a natural part of being a human being.
The fact you are spinning what Cypress and/or I have said indicates one of two things: You are a liar or you are mentally ill. I think it's the latter.
My prediction for your future remains the same.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Brain is not the person. Is my brain your brain?
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Why do you think I'm sick, Perry? Because I told you the truth?
Don't worry about me, son. I'm fine. I am, however, concerned about you and your mentally ill friends who refuse to seek treatment. Sad.
But that's what I have been saying.
Your neural network is "you", whether or not you accept religious precepts about the lasting, transcendant, and persistent self, and your prefrontal cortex has evolved to excercise reason and decision-making functions to make choices and decide on actions.
ZenMode
Well-known member
I'm not saying the brain is the person or the self. There is no separate self that exists in your brain, behind your eyes. I'm just saying that, if you're going to make the argument that "you" are equal to something, the brain is the logical choice.
As I've said previously, your brain is absolutely unique. Unless you're an identical twin, your genes are unique and no other brain has your life experiences.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Unique brain that makes decisions having nothing to do with desires of the person. Got it.
I've never felt like a meat puppet tethered to the puppet strings of a Master Puppeteer, and I wonder why anyone would feel like that.
Unless strong scientific proof and consensus is forthcoming showing that we do not excercise freedom of choice, I am going to trust sensory perception and intuition.
ZenMode
Well-known member
The desires are created by the brain. If you suddenly desire water, that is the brain creating the desire because, again, there is no self pulling the brain strings to create thoughts, desires, intentions, etc.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
The mentally ill side of the discussion are doing their best to avoid being responsible for their own actions.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Why does the brain desire water?
Saint Guinefort
Verified User
I don't necessarily think that Cypress is needing an ineffible self separate from the physical brain, it sounds like he's OK with that concept. The self as an emergent property of the neuron network seems to be something that many of us on here are OK with as a concept.
The "desire for water" can easily be explained as a physical need arising from the body's need to take in water. The stimulus is processed by the subconscious and the person gets water. I am still fascinated that this might be a case wherein the subconscious drives the entire bus and only AFTER we get the water does the brain create a post-hoc explanation that it was our goal to get water. Making it seem that we, indeed, have free will when it can be explained without free will at all.
I'm not of the opinion that free will is, ipso facto, non-existent. I honestly don't think we can ever know that or not. I tend to function with "effective free will", in other words it feels to me that I am taking actions myself and not simply being "driven" by subconscious stimulus-response. But I don't know that for sure and science seems to be showing that it may not be as thorough as we might like to think.