Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

ZenMode said:
What/where is the "you" making decisions?
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Yes, the problem. You associate free will with there having to be a physical location of a self. I never asserted such a thing. There is no "where" of the self.
The "what" is just the process of acting and making decisions.
 
ZenMode said:
To a point, yes. People who practice meditation can learn to quiet their thoughts for a period of time.

Self discipline, when you break it down, is just another action/lack of action fueled by your thoughts. So, one moment you have great self discipline. The next moment you don't. Let's say you're on a diet. Do you know why one moment you can walk past the tray full of brownies and the next you can't? There's some rationalizing going on and that rationalizing is the back and forth of opposing thoughts.

We learn to control anger, resentment like anything else, through external causes and events. Kids aren't born knowing the correct way to respond to their emotions. They have to learn. Learning doesn't stop and each time we experience anything, it has an impact on the micro structure of our brain which then impacts our thoughts.
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When I was younger, I am certain I more frequently had thoughts involving self indulgence, avarice, hate, resentment

Those types of thoughts rarely ever bubble up in my conciousness anymore. In fact, I rarely ever have those kinds of feelings at the emotional subconscious level.

It wasn't an accident things turned out like that.

You claimed you can't control your mind and thoughts.

That's not my experience. Millions of people over thousands of years have adopted the practices of the Eastern and Western sages to learn discipline, right action, and self control over their minds.
 
BidenPresident said:
I do. I chose to read and respond to your post. My brain does not have fingers.
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So you are separate from the physical brain?

That's a tempting thought, but, again, it would suggest that you are possible without a physical brain. That the two may correlate but not have a necessary relationship.

I am of the opinion that I am nothing more than the emergent property of "me" that arises in a self-aware neuron network.

I honestly cannot say enough good about the NOVA specials recently run about the brain and concept of "consciousness". The episode "Who's in Charge?" is absolutely mind-bendingly interesting. Science is struggling to understand the emergence of the "self" and "consciousness" and it is kind of weird.

There's some evidence that we may have less "agency" than we think we do. That when we do something in response to a stimulus our brain actually appears to figure out the "reasoning for this action" after the action as opposed to before.

It's pretty subtle but earth-shattering stuff when you think about it. It's not a stretch to imagine that we are "learning machines" that encode our learning in networks of neurons and that our actions may have some degree of determination which we then plaster over with a post-hoc explanation to justify it to ourselves.

I'm still not sure I fully grok what they were talking about.

But one thing I do know is that I've never experienced another "consciousness" without there being a physical brain involved. And I've seen people's consciousness change or evaporate due to trauma to the brain. So I think it reasonable to assume that the self is nothing more than an emergent property of a physical brain. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Cypress said:
When I was younger, I am certain I more frequently had thoughts involving self indulgence, avarice, hate, resentment

Those types of thoughts rarely ever bubble up in my conciousness anymore. In fact, I rarely ever have those kinds of feelings at the emotional subconscious level.

It wasn't an accident things turned out like that.

You claimed you can't control your mind and thoughts.

That's not my experience. Millions of people over thousands of years have adopted the practices of the Eastern and Western sages to learn discipline, right action, and self control over their minds.
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Controlling one's thoughts is often far harder and sometimes much less healthy than simply accepting that thoughts happen (brains are machines made to think). In some psychological circles mindfulness is taught not with the goal of hammering away bad thoughts that arise but rather to take an interested view that the thought is there and simply thinking something doesn't mean that thing is real.

Sure there's discipline in not acting on your thoughts of avarice and hate, but we all have those thoughts...they're fully part of the human experience. I would frankly be surprised by anyone that claims to not have hateful thoughts from time to time.

So much of our thought process occurs outside of our direct control (HERE) I would be fascinated to figure out how someone COULD control their thoughts to the point of eliminating many of the basic human thoughts everyone has.
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes, the problem. You associate free will with there having to be a physical location of a self. I never asserted such a thing. There is no "where" of the self.
The "what" is just the process of acting and making decisions.
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If there isn't a "you" that you can identify as doing the "what" (decision making process), then how are decisions being made? Obviously your fingers, skin, bones etc can't make decisions. If decisions aren't just happening, as I am claiming, where is the decision maker?
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not only FREE to believe I have no choices; I literally have no choice but to believe what I believe. I can't "free will" my way into believing something I don't believe, wanting something I don't want or remembering something I've forgotten.
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Exactly. Something you and dogs have in common. :thup:
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
They didn't require you to support you contentions with evidence in college?
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Yes, they do and I have. Did you see this conversation has been going on for over two weeks and across a few threads, Perry?

If you are sincerely interested, read through the hundreds of posts and get back to me with a quoted post on any questions you have. :)
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
Fair enough.

What model do you use?
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More like complex systems.
"Complex systems are characterized by many components that interact in multiple ways among each other and their environment. These components form networks of interactions, sometimes with just a few components involved in many interactions. Interactions may generate novel information that make it difficult to study components in isolation or to completely predict their future."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/

The brain is just part of a complex system with the body and the environment.
 
ZenMode said:
If there isn't a "you" that you can identify as doing the "what" (decision making process), then how are decisions being made? Obviously your fingers, skin, bones etc can't make decisions. If decisions aren't just happening, as I am claiming, where is the decision maker?
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There is no "where." That is a problem for your explanation. The where is always the brain.
 
Cypress said:
When I was younger, I am certain I more frequently had thoughts involving self indulgence, avarice, hate, resentment

Those types of thoughts rarely ever bubble up in my conciousness anymore. In fact, I rarely ever have those kinds of feelings at the emotional subconscious level.

It wasn't an accident things turned out like that.
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Yes, I think all people change as they age. We are born a empty slate, with our brain sitting in the dark confines of our head, and we immediately start experiencing and learning and molding our brains through what we see, feel, smell, hear, etc. All of those experiences, from birth until we die, are structuring our minds.
You claimed you can't control your mind and thoughts.

That's not my experience. Millions of people over thousands of years have adopted the practices of the Eastern and Western sages to learn discipline, right action, and self control over their minds.
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An awareness/experience of the practices of Eastern and Western sages would impact your brain/thoughts just as all other experiences would. Those experiences would sculpt your brain and impact decisions.

No free will needed.
 
BidenPresident said:
More like complex systems.
"Complex systems are characterized by many components that interact in multiple ways among each other and their environment. These components form networks of interactions, sometimes with just a few components involved in many interactions. Interactions may generate novel information that make it difficult to study components in isolation or to completely predict their future."
https://complexityexplained.github.io/

The brain is just part of a complex system with the body and the environment.
Click to expand...

Yet you don't believe in "emergent properties"? Interesting.
 
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