Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

[Dutch Uncle]

It's not possible to make a voluntary action without thoughts.

The fact you refuse to see the point after 2 weeks of discussion also fits with a diagnosis of schizophrenia or similar personality disorder.

Your logic reminds me of the underpants gnomes. We're agreed thoughts come from the subconscious unbidden. I'm saying we have a choice on what to do about those thoughts such as cheat on one's girlfriend, join a baseball league, key someone's car, eat peanut butter and cottage cheese to save money for a mountain bike, etc, etc, etc. As you've already admitted, you believe you must act on those thoughts.

When questioned, you always circle back to something like "It's not possible to make a voluntary action without thoughts", which completely ignores the previous discussion about the differences between subconscious thoughts and conscious action. IMO, this behavior is irrational on your part.

If I do something, it's because my thoughts compelled me to do something. If I don't, it's because my thoughts compelled me notto do something.

https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Because dogs don't "think". They react.

I disagree. While the dog isn't doing advanced mathematics or philosophy (likely) it IS thinking. It takes in information and it responds based on the information. Just like we do. It thinks and assesses whether something is a threat or not.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I disagree. While the dog isn't doing advanced mathematics or philosophy (likely) it IS thinking. It takes in information and it responds based on the information. Just like we do. It thinks and assesses whether something is a threat or not.

I.E. it reacts. It doesn't think "Should I pee on the left side of the tree or the right?" It just follows its nose and pees.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I.E. it reacts. It doesn't think "Should I pee on the left side of the tree or the right?" It just follows its nose and pees.

How do you know what processes are going on inside a dog's brain? And we KNOW it has a brain not unlike our own, so I'm curious why you think it functions fundamentally differently from humans.

We've actually run fMRI's on dogs.

 

[ZenMode]

Ask your therapist if you decide to seek treatment, Mode.

I know, it's a difficult question to answer honestly. It's much easier to come back with a sarcastic comment.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

How do you know what processes are going on inside a dog's brain? And we KNOW it has a brain not unlike our own, so I'm curious why you think it functions fundamentally differently from humans.

We've actually run fMRI's on dogs.

I went to college and studied behaviorism.

That said, some dogs are smarter than others. It's not reasoning as much as it's aggressiveness to try alternate solutions and learn from them. Trial and error learning.

Humans learn the same way but the smarter, sane ones can also apply such learning in ways that look forward so they can plan for better outcomes in the future. Dogs don't plan. They just react. As mentioned previously, they are good examples of Zen; always living in the eternal now. In fact, they are incapable of doing otherwise. Humans can do otherwise because the sane ones have free will.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I know, it's a difficult question to answer honestly. It's much easier to come back with a sarcastic comment.

Two weeks, hundreds of posts and you keep coming back to the same fire hydrant like a dog. LOL

 

[ZenMode]

Two weeks, hundreds of posts and you keep coming back to the same fire hydrant like a dog. LOL

If by fire hydrant you mean reality, yes.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If by fire hydrant you mean reality, yes.

You're free to believe you have no choices in life, Mode. That's what interests me about you.

 

[ZenMode]

I do. At least to some extent.

It can be cultivated through self discipline and self reflection.

To a point, yes. People who practice meditation can learn to quiet their thoughts for a period of time.

Self discipline, when you break it down, is just another action/lack of action fueled by your thoughts. So, one moment you have great self discipline. The next moment you don't. Let's say you're on a diet. Do you know why one moment you can walk past the tray full of brownies and the next you can't? There's some rationalizing going on and that rationalizing is the back and forth of opposing thoughts.

I have learned to control anger, resentment, thoughts of retribution, violence, hatred, and revenge, even against people who have done me wrong. I have learned to temper fleeting thoughts of self indulgence and greed.

That's actually another lesson of the sages of the Eastern and Western traditions, that we can purify our thoughts and cultivate right thinking through discipline, repetition, self control. It just requires will power and free choice.

We learn to control anger, resentment like anything else, through external causes and events. Kids aren't born knowing the correct way to respond to their emotions. They have to learn. Learning doesn't stop and each time we experience anything, it has an impact on the micro structure of our brain which then impacts our thoughts.

 

[ZenMode]

You're free to believe you have no choices in life, Mode. That's what interests me about you.

I'm not only FREE to believe I have no choices; I literally have no choice but to believe what I believe. I can't "free will" my way into believing something I don't believe, wanting something I don't want or remembering something I've forgotten.

 

[BidenPresident]

I'm not only FREE to believe I have no choices; I literally have no choice but to believe what I believe. I can't "free will" my way into believing something I don't believe, wanting something I don't want or remembering something I've forgotten.

So your brain is controlling your life. I am trying to understand your position.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I went to college and studied behaviorism.

They didn't require you to support you contentions with evidence in college?

That said, some dogs are smarter than others. It's not reasoning as much as it's aggressiveness to try alternate solutions and learn from them. Trial and error learning.

That reads a lot like "special pleading". What do you mean by "smarter" dogs if they can't think? Just saying "aggressiveness" doesn't actually solve the issue given that most humans usually just resort to aggressiveness when they are denied what they want.

Humans learn the same way but the smarter, sane ones can also apply such learning in ways that look forward so they can plan for better outcomes in the future.

Is that the definition of "thinking"? Sounds pretty limited. And I also think my dog is quite capable of learning and then planning. There's a strong possibility that early humans learned to hunt in packs by observing how wolf or canid packs hunted (HERE).

Who's the thinker now?

They just react.

Except when they coordinate and hunt in packs.

As mentioned previously, they are good examples of Zen; always living in the eternal now. In fact, they are incapable of doing otherwise. Humans can do otherwise because the sane ones have free will.

How do you know humans have free will? There's even some evidence that our mental model that explains why we took a specific action may occur AFTER we take the action (see the NOVA episode on the human brain called "Who's In Control?") We may not have as much (or any) agency but simply "react".

 

[ZenMode]

So your brain is controlling your life. I am trying to understand your position.

If not your brain, what else controls your life?

 

[BidenPresident]

If not your brain, what else controls your life?

I do. I chose to read and respond to your post. My brain does not have fingers.

 

[Cypress]

There are exceptions to every generalization.

In Asia, I can see the Zhu Xi and the Neoconfucians subscribing to a certain kind of individual selfhood, since they believed the individual was endowed with a certain type and amount of Qi.

"A Theory of Confucian Selfhood: Self-Cultivation and Free Will in Confucian Philosophy"

Confucius did not spell out the notion of self, inherent in his project of self-cultivation. (His) project is a self-motivated and self-oriented project of human personal moral development and moral amelioration. It is no doubt most important for the Confucian philosophy of society and state as well, because to Confucius and his followers a good society and a righteous government must start with and hence be founded on the moral perfection of the human person. Hence the question of how to conceive a human self for the purpose of meeting the needs of constructing a good society and a just government remains a core question for the Confucian enterprise.

It is to be shown that (the) common Chinese notion of human self is embodied in the Confucian statements on cultivation of moral virtues of the human self.



https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...-philosophy/3611E460B565FAB6406A632D81D8DBC9#

 

[ZenMode]

I do. I chose to read and respond to your post. My brain does not have fingers.

Who is the "you" that is typing responses without a brain being involved?

 

[BidenPresident]

Who is the "you" that is typing responses without a brain being involved?

I did not say the brain was not involved.

 

[ZenMode]

I did not say the brain was not involved.

Obviously, no intentional actions is possible without brain involvement. So, "you" are your fingers?

 

[BidenPresident]

Obviously, no intentional actions is possible without brain involvement. So, "you" are your fingers?

Seriously?! I am my brain, my fingers, my feet, my body. Why does this confound you?