Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

Cardinal Carminative said:
Controlling one's thoughts is often far harder and sometimes much less healthy than simply accepting that thoughts happen (brains are machines made to think). In some psychological circles mindfulness is taught not with the goal of hammering away bad thoughts that arise but rather to take an interested view that the thought is there and simply thinking something doesn't mean that thing is real.

Sure there's discipline in not acting on your thoughts of avarice and hate, but we all have those thoughts...they're fully part of the human experience. I would frankly be surprised by anyone that claims to not have hateful thoughts from time to time.

So much of our thought process occurs outside of our direct control (HERE) I would be fascinated to figure out how someone COULD control their thoughts to the point of eliminating many of the basic human thoughts everyone has.
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I literally don't have thoughts of resentment, jealousy, hate, avarice anymore after a lifetime of cultivating self discipline, temperance, study and reflection on the sages of Eastern and Western wisdom.

This isn't a mystery. It's been the whole point of Stoicism, Confucianism, Buddhism, and other traditions for thousands of years.

If I were a meat puppet I wouldn't be able to control anything psychological.
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes, the universe and everything in it.
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So the universe "thinks"? Interesting. And you also think that everything in the universe has a "self" in the same sense you and I do? Like rocks and gas molecules?

Interesting hypothesis. I've beat up more than my fair share of rocks in my day...if I thought they were conscious I'd probably feel kind of guilty.
 
BidenPresident said:
The very first time you asked that question weeks (?) ago I said there is no location.
You are using your model and supposing I have the same one.
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If you can't point to a decision maker... some part of your brain that is monitoring, creating and filtering thoughts to allow free will, then how can you dispute what I'm saying?
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
So the universe "thinks"? Interesting. And you also think that everything in the universe has a "self" in the same sense you and I do? Like rocks and gas molecules?

Interesting hypothesis. I've beat up more than my fair share of rocks in my day...if I thought they were conscious I'd probably feel kind of guilty.
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I never said the universe had a self. Why do people keep saying that?
 
ZenMode said:
If you can't point to a decision maker... some part of your brain that is monitoring, creating and filtering thoughts to allow free will, then how can you dispute what I'm saying?
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Look, I read a lot of academic articles on free will--as well as scientific ones. The argument against free will is incoherent. Free will is behavior. It is not a substance.
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
So the universe "thinks"? Interesting. And you also think that everything in the universe has a "self" in the same sense you and I do? Like rocks and gas molecules?

Interesting hypothesis. I've beat up more than my fair share of rocks in my day...if I thought they were conscious I'd probably feel kind of guilty.
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I never mentioned ethics. But yes, some environmentalists do think nature is a living organism.
 
Cardinal Carminative said:
I doubt that VERY highly.



Most of your thinking occurs subconsciously (the link I provided earlier). So I don't know how you control that which is not consciously controlled.
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If you are siezed by feelings and thoughts of envy, resentment, anger, jealousy that's your problem. I don't have that problem.

Perry, aka Jank, aka Cardinal I'm not going to invest time discussing this with someone who constantly changes their screen name and posts under sock puppet accounts.
 
BidenPresident said:
I never said the universe had a self. Why do people keep saying that?
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But when I asked you directly what the relationship was between the self and the brain you said you didn't use that model. When I asked what model you used you introduced the concept of intelligence as part of the universe and everything in it.

So maybe I need to go back to the original question: what do YOU think the self is? You claim you don't believe in emergent properties but then you talk about complex systems (which is kind of a way of talking about emergent properties, but I will accept that you don't like that definition).

What is the self? If it doesn't have a direct relationship with the physical brain and isn't an emergent property, from whence does it arise?
 
Cypress said:
If you are siezed by feelings and thoughts of envy, resentment, anger, jealousy that's your problem. I don't have that problem.
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Now let's see some hate...

Perry, aka Jank, aka Cardinal I'm not going to invest time discussing this with someone who constantly changes their screen name and posts under sock puppet accounts.
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Yup, there it is. You lose! You DO feel anger or hatred or resentment.
 
BidenPresident said:
Look, I read a lot of academic articles on free will--as well as scientific ones. The argument against free will is incoherent. Free will is behavior. It is not a substance.
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Free will is the belief that "you" are managing your thoughts and making decisions, but you can't find a "you" that's making decisions. That is what I'm saying is true. There is no self that is exists outside of the stream of consciousness that is regulating thoughts and making decisions.
 
ZenMode said:
Free will is the belief that "you" are managing your thoughts and making decisions, but you can't find a "you" that's making
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I see. That is one definition. I should be more clear that it is not mine. Free will only refers to the process of choosing, deciding, acting. There need not be a "you" managing it.
 
BidenPresident said:
I see. That is one definition. I should be more clear that it is not mine. Free will only refers to the process of choosing, deciding, acting. There need not be a "you" managing it.
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"Free will only refers to the process of choosing, deciding, acting"

Where does the process exist?
 
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