Film Review: SICKO!

Superfreak said:
Fear&Loathing said:
Alright, let me make it very very simple for you. "

Great, this should be good.... here we go...

"You cling to a singular cause for all health problems in America."

No moron... I never said it was due to a singular cause. Usually when someone says we need to fix something and they start by saying "first" that implies that there will be a second and perhaps more in the list of things to do. The very same post I said "Next" and then echoed Damos point that we need to look into the costs and see what we can do to fix them. Do try to read AND comprehend. It will save me a lot of time explaining shit like this to you.

"Most people are in decent enough shape that they cannot be considered fat or obese (myself included)"

Right... that is why we continue to hear how obese Americans are in general... because most people are in decent shape. Seriously, are you just yanking my chain on this point?

"You want to absolve the insurance companies from any and all responsibilty when they are blatantly profit seeking at the expense of their customers. "

Please moron... show me where I said anything even remotely close to the above. Side note: of course they seek to make a profit... they are a FOR profit firm.

"You're the idiot for saying that fat people are the cause of high insurance premiums and denial of claims. While overweight people may cause premiums to rise marginally, the do not constitute or explain why most Americans are without insurance."

You are an idiot if you think it only has a marginal effect. If a person is overweight does their chances of a heart attack increase or decrease? Chance they become diabetic increase or decrease? Chance of suffering from high blood pressure increase or decrease? Here is a hint... they all increase. If the chances increase, then the odds of a hospital/doctors visit are going to increase. The more obese our society becomes the greater the healthcare costs will be. The greater the healthcare costs are, the more insurance will rise to cover the greater costs. Because as you mentioned, the insurance companies are not out to lose money. Also, please note, this does not mean overweight people are the SOLE cause of higher premiums. But it most certainly is a major factor.

"The fact is that being sick in America is expensive because faceless corporations look to increase their share of the market and their profits."

Right... so like so many others you are going to simply point your finger at corporations and just blame them... cause it is the pc thing to do, as well as the easiest. The insurance and pharma companies certainly share in the blame, but they are far from being the major part of the problem.

Ihe system is broken, and you want to blame everyone but the HMO's. What a shame stupidity isn't covered under a health care policy and even if it was, you'd probably have your claimed denied"

Seriously, where do you come up with crap like the above? Nowhere have I said that HMOs are part of the problem.
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I know you never said HMO's were a part of the problem. That's my issue. They are a major part of the problem and I would like to know where you came up with the idea that fat people are responsible for high insurance premiums. I would like numbers please...
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What part of the above post do you not comprehend? Do you disagree that overweight people are at greater risk for health problems?

Do you maintain your position that most people are in decent shape despite all the reports on how obese Americans are getting?

What do you think drives the insurance companies to raise rates? They raise rates because of the greater risk of higher healthcare costs do to the greater risks that Americans face in general do to their obesity. Again, this is not the sole reason that rates go up. But it plays a large part in determining rates.
 
Watermark said:
"Because America cares more for profit than it does for its citizens."

A truly uncaring government would run it's people into the ground and regulate the shit out of them until they were in poverty.



"In spite of the illusion that "we have the best healthcare in the world", that in reality is far from the truth. The World Health Organization ranks France as having the best healthcare, the US ranks 37th in the world on healthcare. It isn't just the WHO study that points to the failures in our system, there are many other studies that say the same thing, like that of the Commonwealth Fund of New York, which mirrors the analysis, and points out that we are near dead last in performance."

I've rarely heard people say we have the best in the world, and I've heard a lot of stupid things about America from nationalists. We do have damn good healthcare, it's just that it's too damn expensive to think about. Our national policies and directives do little but inflate prices and line pharma's pockets. We need a universal insurance system that does more than send money into the pockets of the big companies, and we need a system that doesn't have two year waiting lists, also, even if two year waiting lists would hide our high costs.

The WHO statistics are based only 1/4th on "performance" of the system, and the three other factors they used basically overlap each other and vastly favour government run universal healthcare systems where private healthcare is banned.

"Many Americans will suggest that studies can be rigged, but just as one can rig studies, one can also ignore studies, data, and information they refuse to accept. You can ignore that our veteran hospitals are SERIOUSLY lacking, and in fact, are an embarrassment to this nation. You can ignore that US health care is the most expensive in the world, double that of the next most costly, yet measures near the bottom on access, patient safety, efficiency, and equity. You can ignore we will soon (2010) be spending 20% of the GDP on healthcare."

I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying the statistic is pure bullshit and is being used wrongly.

We spend more than twice as much as the next nation in TOTAL. We do spend more per capita than any other nations, but as I've told you before Black, DON'T QUOTE TOTALS TO ME WHENEVER PER CAPITA SHOULD BE USED. YOU'RE TELLING A LIE IF YOU DO. The difference isn't half as dramatic in per capita statistics. We'd have higher total costs than any other nation even if we spent like 2% of our GDP on an amazingly efficient healthcare system, simply because we have such a large population.


"You can ignore that infant mortality in the US is atrocious and higher than most developed nations, even Cuba. You can ignore life expectancy in the US ranks 45th out of 78 nations, even behind Greece, Bosnia, and Jordan. You can ignore that 47 million (16%) of Americans have no healthcare and 24 million (30%) of US children lack regular access to healthcare."

Life expectancy is like 76 for women. It's like 80 in Japan, and Japan is 1st. It's more our genes and our lifestyle choices than some giant conspiracy.


"You can ignore that the US lags behind most nations, including Germany, New Zealand, and the UK in adoption of information technology that enhance physicians' ability to monitor chronic conditions and the use of medication, including that prescribed by other physicians."

Newt Gingrich and Hillary Clinton (interesting combination, eh?) have been trying to push to a digital health record keeping system, which would save us about 20 billion a year. Unfortunately, that would only reduce healthcare costs by like 2%.


"This, and a great deal more demonstrate that the most expensive healthcare system in the world is a dysfunctional mess .. but one can ignore the facts and reality and focus on things like how much disposable income Americans have and our ability to buy toys. What good is making more money when you have to spend more money, don't have adequate healthcare, and you rank 45th out of 78 in life expectancy?"

*Sigh*


"Like children, we are consumed by money and toys. Even the concept of democracy has a giant gaping hole in it called MONEY. Infuse enough money in a democracy and what you'll have is a plutocracy which is what we have today. Our politicians are bought and serve their plutocratic masters, not the will of the people."

*Sigh*

Plug socialism elsewhere. I don't believe in socialism because I don't want everything in my life run like the DMV.


"The good news is that today, 65% of Americans believe that we should have universal healthcare, even if it means higher taxes. In California, the governor has proposed a shared healthcare plan which is supported by 72% of Californians and opposed by 22%. Americans are not very good at demanding from our government and getting results because our politicians are owned."

It's also true that 65% of Americans have no goddam idea how to go about universal healthcare. That's why we have elected representatives to think on these things. The average Americans solution to everything is to tax "other people" and raise the deficit. Pardon me if I have little trust in them. I don't even have much trust in the reps, but they at least have proper information in front of them.
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Let's see .. Whose statistics do I believe?

World Health Organization, Commonwealth Fund, and a host or organizations and government agencies both national and internationl, specifally missioned to the analysis and critque of health issues, run by experts and medical professionals with thousands of hours dedicated to this misson ..

or

Watermark

... and a cult of libertarians whose only purpose in life is "me" ..

Man, this is going to be tough
 
I like it: the "Let's Punish Obese People!" GOP healthcare plan.

Riddle me this batman: Why do developed countries with single-payer universal healthcare have less problems with obesity, life longevity, diabetes, child mortality, etc?
 
blackascoal said:
Let's see .. Whose statistics do I believe?

World Health Organization, Commonwealth Fund, and a host or organizations and government agencies both national and internationl, specifally missioned to the analysis and critque of health issues, run by experts and medical professionals with thousands of hours dedicated to this misson ..

or

Watermark

... and a cult of libertarians whose only purpose in life is "me" ..

Man, this is going to be tough
Click to expand...

LOL
 
Cypress said:
I like it: the "Let's Punish Obese People!" GOP healthcare plan.

Riddle me this batman: Why do developed countries with single-payer universal healthcare have less problems with obesity, life longevity, diabetes, child mortality, etc?
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Because everyone has access to doctors and preventive care is encouraged and rewarded. And, if you go to see your doctor regularly, he or she is going to be in the best position to get you to lose weight, stop smoking, whatever. They carry far more gravitas, I believe, than anyone else telling the same thing.
 
Superfreak said:
What part of the above post do you not comprehend? Do you disagree that overweight people are at greater risk for health problems?

Do you maintain your position that most people are in decent shape despite all the reports on how obese Americans are getting?

What do you think drives the insurance companies to raise rates? They raise rates because of the greater risk of higher healthcare costs do to the greater risks that Americans face in general do to their obesity. Again, this is not the sole reason that rates go up. But it plays a large part in determining rates.
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I still don't see numbers from you, which leads me to believe you don't have any and therefore are talking out of your ass. I do understand that much.
 
"I still don't see numbers from you, which leads me to believe you don't have any and therefore are talking out of your ass. I do understand that much."

What fucking numbers do you want to see? Are you seriously saying that you don't believe that Americans are obese in general? Are you saying that you don't believe that obese people are a higher health risk than healthy people?

What part of that is so hard for you to comprehend?
 
Complications of Obesity/Related Diseases
Overweight and obese people are at an increased risk for developing the following conditions (in no particular order)13. Please note that the glossary in section VI provides definitions for these terms.

Type 2 (non-insulin dependent) diabetes
Cardiovascular disease
Stroke
Hypertension
hypothyroidism
Dyslipidemia
Hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance, glucose intolerance
Congestive heart failure
Angina pectoris
Cholecystitis
Cholelithiasis
Osteoarthritis
Gout
Fatty liver disease
Sleep apnea and other respiratory problems
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)
Fertility complications
Pregnancy complications
Psychological disorders
Uric acid nephrolithiasis (kidney stones)
Stress urinary incontinence
Cancer of the kidney, endometrium, breast, colon and rectum, esophagus, prostate and gall bladder
Death

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/complications.html

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/relateddiseases.html

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/economicimpact.html

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/trends.html

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/govinitiatives.html
 
What I'm saying is that the obesity rates is not either A) widespread enough to warrant the drastic increase in premiums and B) that the insurance companies put profits over human lives, thus wrecking our health care system. Therefore, the nation's citizen's must be talken out of the hands of the greedy and given to a universal health care plan like the one they have in Canada, England, Czech Republic, Cuba, Venezuela, Finland, Sweden, Norway etc etc... If you honestly think that fat people are the cause or even a major fraction of the problem in dealing with HMO's denial of claims and rising costs, then you are the tool, idiot, ass clown etc etc.

So show me the numbers that say that fat people are the cause of these HMO's denying claims or the outrageous cost of health care in the U.S.
 
Fear&Loathing said:
What I'm saying is that the obesity rates is not either A) widespread enough to warrant the drastic increase in premiums and B) that the insurance companies put profits over human lives, thus wrecking our health care system. Therefore, the nation's citizen's must be talken out of the hands of the greedy and given to a universal health care plan like the one they have in Canada, England, Czech Republic, Cuba, Venezuela, Finland, Sweden, Norway etc etc... If you honestly think that fat people are the cause or even a major fraction of the problem in dealing with HMO's denial of claims and rising costs, then you are the tool, idiot, ass clown etc etc.

So show me the numbers that say that fat people are the cause of these HMO's denying claims or the outrageous cost of health care in the U.S.
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Ok these still don't correlate with the rise in health care premiums. FOCUS. Why are these HMO's denying claims?
 
I never said that fat people caused claims to be rejected. I said that the ever increasing trend of obesity in the US (which was shown on the charts on the provided link above) is most certainly linked in a significant way to the rising healthcare costs.

That said, if you reduce the costs associated with obesity, you will have more funds available to pay other claims.

The whole point was... lets reduce the COSTS of healthcare... THEN you can focus on providing a national healthcare plan. Simply switching over to a national healthcare plan before you address the cost factor does nothing.
 
"Ok these still don't correlate with the rise in health care premiums. "

you don't see a correlation in the rising obesity trends and the rising premiums? Do you understand what correlation means?
 
Lets try this one again....

Complications of Obesity/Related Diseases
Overweight and obese people are at an increased risk for developing the following conditions (in no particular order)13. Please note that the glossary in section VI provides definitions for these terms.

Type 2 (non-insulin dependent) diabetes
Cardiovascular disease
Stroke
Hypertension
hypothyroidism
Dyslipidemia
Hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance, glucose intolerance
Congestive heart failure
Angina pectoris
Cholecystitis
Cholelithiasis
Osteoarthritis
Gout
Fatty liver disease
Sleep apnea and other respiratory problems
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)
Fertility complications
Pregnancy complications
Psychological disorders
Uric acid nephrolithiasis (kidney stones)
Stress urinary incontinence
Cancer of the kidney, endometrium, breast, colon and rectum, esophagus, prostate and gall bladder
Death


Now... if obesity has the above complications associated with it... don't ya think that is going to provoke premium increases from the insurance companies when they see the trend of of obesity growing?

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/trends.html
 
You can't use logic of your own, you must have a link to post where somebody else uses logic. Especially from a blogspot or a movie where people have a specific agenda, then you might be believed.
 
Superfreak said:
Lets try this one again....

Complications of Obesity/Related Diseases
Overweight and obese people are at an increased risk for developing the following conditions (in no particular order)13. Please note that the glossary in section VI provides definitions for these terms.

Type 2 (non-insulin dependent) diabetes
Cardiovascular disease
Stroke
Hypertension
hypothyroidism
Dyslipidemia
Hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance, glucose intolerance
Congestive heart failure
Angina pectoris
Cholecystitis
Cholelithiasis
Osteoarthritis
Gout
Fatty liver disease
Sleep apnea and other respiratory problems
Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)
Fertility complications
Pregnancy complications
Psychological disorders
Uric acid nephrolithiasis (kidney stones)
Stress urinary incontinence
Cancer of the kidney, endometrium, breast, colon and rectum, esophagus, prostate and gall bladder
Death


Now... if obesity has the above complications associated with it... don't ya think that is going to provoke premium increases from the insurance companies when they see the trend of of obesity growing?

http://www.obesityinamerica.org/trends.html
Click to expand...

I understand very well what correlation means. It's YOU that is having trouble showing the correlation between the rising number of obesity in the U.S. and the health care premiums. You're the one who seems to have trouble understanding that even taking into account the obesity statistics that the premiums are increasing exponentially beyond that of the obesity statistics. Also, you still have not answered my question with why are these companies denying claims?
 
Damocles said:
You can't use logic of your own, you must have a link to post where somebody else uses logic. Especially from a blogspot or a movie where people have a specific agenda, then you might be believed.
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I simply want statistics. Facts. Truth to back up Water's assertion that rising premiums are the result of people being fat. You think they don't have fat people in England? I can assure they do and quite a few of them.
 
"Also, you still have not answered my question with why are these companies denying claims?"

I have no idea dumbass... your vague... "why are they denying claims" doesn't tell me anything. There are likely a wide variety of reasons (some of them not good) why claims are denied. But unless you have a specific example, then there is no way I could possibly know why it was denied.
 
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Fear&Loathing said:
I simply want statistics. Facts. Truth to back up Water's assertion that rising premiums are the result of people being fat. You think they don't have fat people in England? I can assure they do and quite a few of them.
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Superfreak is not Watermark.
 
"I simply want statistics. Facts. Truth to back up Water's assertion that rising premiums are the result of people being fat. You think they don't have fat people in England? I can assure they do and quite a few of them."

Are you looking at the fucking charts that I am posting? Are you simply too ignorant to read them? You cannot see that obesity has increased dramatically since 1991? You cannot see that the vast majority of states have over 20% of their populations obese? With the trends increasing in every single state? Couple that with all of the complications associated with obesity and then look at the rapid rise in costs of healthcare.

Again, I am not saying that it is the SOLE cause you moron. But it is a major problem. Which is why HHA and FDA have launched programs to combat obesity in America.
 
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