Free will and original sin

Cypress said:
The Protestant tradition has some principles that are utterly untenable to me.

First and foremost, Luther claims one is saved by grace alone, not good works.

In theory, Luther thought it was okay to curse, be rude, crude, and belligerent. Because nothing one does makes any difference in salvation. It is strictly up to grace. Calvin was even scarier. Predestination means that before the beginning of time God selected some to be saved and the rest to be damned. It was all decided before you were born and there is nothing you can do to improve your chances of salvation.

Again, this scary stuff is particular to Protestants. Not to all Christians, and certainly not Eastern Christians. The Protestant traditions scares the bejesus out of me!
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I can see why; seen through the eyes of the adult that I am now, much of it is pretty horrifying. Original sin, predestination, you are only saved if you do/believe ____, a god who casts most of his creations into eternal hellfire, etc. etc. You've probably never belonged to a fundie church, have you? I did for a couple of years in my 20s. They are even MORE rigid and narrow-minded than the above. Not only are all non-Xtians going to hell, so are most members of other Xtian denominations. Except of course for theirs. There is a chance that everyone could repent and adopt their ways, but that was the only chance.
 
bhaktajan said:
WOW. Are all the demonic acts out there are due to organised religious adherents?
I never saw those old Dragnet episodes.
Happydays and Mayberry RFD really neglected these senarios.

So America has the most imprisoned numbers?
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Extrapolate much?

Take a couple more hits from that bong. Maybe you could get even more incoherent.
 
Phantasmal said:
We had a poster here who believed animals swam to Noah from Australia, dinosaurs were on the ark and animals were in suspended animation so Noah didn’t have to feed them.
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Which is one reason I like to belong to a political forum: Schadenfreude.

Some people are so obviously victims of genetic malformation or mental illness that I can count my blessings and say "Well, I may be fucked up but I'm not that fucked up!"
 
jacksonsprat22 said:
Yes, ignore his impeachment. Only third in US history. Fake news.
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Seriously? Are you just pissed off or are you really so fucking stupid that you think you can lie about me and get away with it. Are you over 30? Over 70? Jesus Fucking Christ, get a clue.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
I can see why; seen through the eyes of the adult that I am now, much of it is pretty horrifying. Original sin, predestination, you are only saved if you do/believe ____, a god who casts most of his creations into eternal hellfire, etc. etc. You've probably never belonged to a fundie church, have you? I did for a couple of years in my 20s. They are even MORE rigid and narrow-minded than the above. Not only are all non-Xtians going to hell, so are most members of other Xtian denominations. Except of course for theirs. There is a chance that everyone could repent and adopt their ways, but that was the only chance.
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Its unfortunate this country was founded by the Puritans, we got off to a bad start right there!

My experience is limited to the Eastern Orthodox church and a few years with Quakers when my Mama dabbled with the Society of Friends.

Neither the Eastern tradition nor the Quakers had any kind of preoccupation with fire and brimstone, nor was I ever made to feel I was fundamentally flawed and stained by original sin.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Hmm. As a young person I read the Bible cover to cover 2-3 times. Well, except the __ begat __ part. lol It is filled with human wisdom, experience, poetry. But in the end, it is still a book written by humans and heavily edited by others.
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Agreed on all points. The same goes for other ancient books of wisdom. In an age when anyone can literally publish a picture and article about their own shit, trying to figure out what is wise and what is not is very difficult. This entire forum is about that difficulty. In an age when books were rare, then they only used valuable resources to write down and treasure the very best of their society.

Some things are outdated such as dietary restrictions, but other areas are recognition of basic human needs within a society and in a hostile world. The latter is as applicable today as it was 4,000 years ago.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Hmm. As a young person I read the Bible cover to cover 2-3 times. Well, except the __ begat __ part. lol It is filled with human wisdom, experience, poetry. But in the end, it is still a book written by humans and heavily edited by others.
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Left out the "with comprehension" part. Makes a big difference.
 
Cypress said:
Its unfortunate this country was founded by the Puritans, we got off to a bad start right there!

My experience is limited to the Eastern Orthodox church and a few years with Quakers when my Mama dabbled with the Society of Friends.

Neither the Eastern tradition nor the Quakers had any kind of preoccupation with fire and brimstone, nor was I ever made to feel I was fundamentally flawed and stained by original sin.
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You should consider the assholes they were leaving behind. :)
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Please don't equate "spiritual" with "religious." They are distinctly different.
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Agreed. Religion, like a Martial Art, is a path to a desired goal. Learning to defend oneself is important in a hostile world. Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, Jiu Jitsu and other martial arts are the path to attaining the ability to defend oneself. Religion is a path to spiritual enlightenment, oneness with God or, as noted in the OP, "union with the divine".

Where religions go bad is when they are more about keeping the religion than in helping people become One with God.
 
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