Heaven & Hell (Open to Everyone)

[Yakuda]

Yes, this is true. The Bible has a lot of good stuff in it. A great set of ways to live a good life. But it's needlessly muddled with a bunch (BUNCH) of bad stuff as well.

Like what?

 

[Cypress]

Yes, this is true. The Bible has a lot of good stuff in it. A great set of ways to live a good life. But it's needlessly muddled with a bunch (BUNCH) of bad stuff as well.

Most of the Old Treatment is irrelevant to me, and even to a lot of Christians, because so much of it just has to do with the history of the Israelites, and a vast litany Jewish ritual purification laws, sacrificial rites, and kosher laws

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'd say the Crusades were "going on the offensive".

But also just look at the Book of Joshua in the Bible. God helped the Israelites displace (murder and kill and utterly destroy) the Canaanites so they could have the land. Saul was even ordered to commit a genocide on the Amalekites.

Christians in the Middle Ages went out of their way to murder jews wholesale.

You can make the "no True Scotsman" argument that religion was "weaponized" and used by leaders. But at the end of the day the Believers had to put blade to body and draw some blood.


That's what history shows.

Exactly my point.

The OT is full of violence. The difference between the OT and the NT is like night and day. Those who seek to conflate them are often liars motivated by evil.

Scapegoating is a political ploy to deflect disgruntled peasants away from the monarchy/national leadership and onto the back of minority groups. Look how well it was used by fascist leaders in the 20th century and by both Putin and Trump in the 21st century.

Disagreed with your True Scotsman fallacy since the facts prove it's true. WWJD?

History shows that those in power wish to remain on power and will weaponize religion to do it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Most of the Old Treatment is irrelevant to me, and even to a lot of Christians, because so much of it just has to do with the history of the Israelites, and a vast litany Jewish ritual purification laws, sacrificial rites, and kosher laws

As proved on JPP, the only self-avowed Christians using the OT are Right Wingers seeking to push hateful agendas such as justifying racism, slavery, antisemitism and homophobia.

 

[BidenPresident]

Most of the Old Treatment is irrelevant to me, and even to a lot of Christians, because so much of it just has to do with the history of the Israelites, and a vast litany Jewish ritual purification laws, sacrificial rites, and kosher laws

Add the New Testament being irrelevant.

 

[Concart]

Yes, they all of a concept of something greater than this life.

Most of the popular culture books available on Amazon, written on ethics and the virtuous life are mostly just taking what was written by the ancient sages, repackaging it, and stripping it of any religious context -->



My project was to get down to the original sources written by the sages of the Axial Age. That was just a personal interest of mine.

Agree with this. As long as ones principles can be separated from the dogma, I'm fine with all of it, the problem is that generally that separation does not occur, and the dogma becomes the religion.

I've been reading a lot about the Mayan culture. The elites used the knowledge they acquired to keep the masses in line. They even had an absolutely amazing bullshit story to justify human sacrifice. Unfortunately, that's the way religion has almost always been used. For the dogma, not the principles.

 

[BidenPresident]

Agree with this. As long as ones principles can be separated from the dogma, I'm fine with all of it, the problem is that generally that separation does not occur, and the dogma becomes the religion.

I've been reading a lot about the Mayan culture. The elites used the knowledge they acquired to keep the masses in line. They even had an absolutely amazing bullshit story to justify human sacrifice. Unfortunately, that's the way religion has almost always been used. For the dogma, not the principles.

Religion has always been about controlling the masses.

 

[Cypress]

As proved on JPP, the only self-avowed Christians using the OT are Right Wingers seeking to push hateful agendas such as justifying racism, slavery, antisemitism and homophobia.

Sounds right.

Most of the OT is nonsense, though I do like the prophet Amos and some others.

I try to be smart and selective in what I read. I am not going to waste time on the OT, the Vedas, the Talmud which are way to long and contain a lot of legal and ritual stuff that are irrelevant to me.

But I can read the Gospel of Luke, the Analects of Confucius, the Dhammapada, the Daodejing, the Bhagavad Gita each in an afternoon and get a heavy dose of Eastern and Western ethics, and philosophy.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Exactly my point.

The OT is full of violence. The difference between the OT and the NT is like night and day. Those who seek to conflate them are often liars motivated by evil.

Marcion and his followers attempted to get the OT pared from the NT. It was decreed Heresy.

So if you take the NT you pretty much have to take the OT. That's the rules of Christianity.

History shows that those in power wish to remain on power and will weaponize religion to do it.

But if religion CAN be leveraged to make people do evil things I don't see the difference once the evil starts happening. The people DOING the killing clearly believe it is part of their faith.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Most of the Old Treatment is irrelevant to me, and even to a lot of Christians, because so much of it just has to do with the history of the Israelites, and a vast litany Jewish ritual purification laws, sacrificial rites, and kosher laws

Once again, this is bordering on Heresy in the Christian church (cf Marcion). Last I checked the God of the OT is the EXACT SAME GOD as in the NT.

(I'll gladly agree that they sound different, but since I'm an atheist I have a simple solution for that...but unfortunately that solution is hardly acceptable to the Faithful)

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Like what?

1Sam 15:3

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Marcion and his followers attempted to get the OT pared from the NT. It was decreed Heresy.

So if you take the NT you pretty much have to take the OT. That's the rules of Christianity.

But if religion CAN be leveraged to make people do evil things I don't see the difference once the evil starts happening. The people DOING the killing clearly believe it is part of their faith.

Marcion died over 1300 years before Martin Luther, Perry. Times change.

Disagreed as Martin Luther and the rise of Protestantism proved. It's included as a perspective, but the NT rules....at least among Christians seeking the walk the path of Christ.

Of course you can't see the difference, Perry, for the reasons you and I have previously discussed. Intelligent, sane people have free will. Dumbasses and the mentally challenged, not so much. No worries, Perry, "The Lord watches over the foolish".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

1Sam 15:3

Psalm 116:6

 

[Concart]

Sounds right.

Most of the OT is nonsense, though I do like the prophet Amos and some others.

I try to be smart and selective in what I read. I am not going to waste time on the OT, the Vedas, the Talmud which are way to long and contain a lot of legal and ritual stuff that are irrelevant to me.

But I can read the Gospel of Luke, the Analects of Confucius, the Dhammapada, the Daodejing, the Bhagavad Gita each in an afternoon and get a heavy dose of Eastern and Western ethics, and philosophy.

You are not in any way a dogmatic Christian. That said, the reality is that the story of the Virgin Birth, dying for the sins of the world, and then coming back from the dead is laughable. 'Hey honey, I'm pregnant, but it was God, not my horny boss. I got that promotion on merit. In fact, I'm STILL a Virgin!'

And yet the prime directive of Christianity is that you believe that utter bullshit story. And if you don't, you will burn in hell. Um...... no thanks?

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Marcion died over 1300 years before Martin Luther, Perry. Times change.

I didn't realize that was an option for the unchanging and eternal God. My bad.

(Last I checked Marcionism is still a heresy though).

Disagreed as Martin Luther and the rise of Protestantism proved. It's included as a perspective, but the NT rules....at least among Christians seeking the walk the path of Christ.

Actually the way most Protestants (especially those on the more conservative end) dispose of the OT laws is through "DISPENSATIONALISM" which is relatively new but has some parallels in some of the early Church Fathers.

Of course you can't see the difference, Perry, for the reasons you and I have previously discussed. Intelligent, sane people have free will. Dumbasses and the mentally challenged, not so much. No worries, Perry, "The Lord watches over the foolish".

As per usual, unable to post without insulting.

 

[IBDaMann]

I hate when atheists feel the need to comment on any religion.

I hate when theists pretend that I am somehow prohibited from commenting on something, but I will give you a pass because you were raised a Deutsch fascist and you know of no other way.

You claim there is no God,

No, I do not. I hate when theists pretend to speak for me and assign to me bogus positions that I do not hold. But in your case, I will give you a pass because you were raised a socialist tyrant who doesn't know any better.

that the universe was just an accident of cells coming together

I hate when morons pretend they are science geniuses and hurl insults that they think are brilliant but that don't even make any sense.

and evolving,without a intelligent designer.

This is not my position.

Don't you think you should ask me what my position is first? Don't you think that would make conversation more productive?

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I try to be smart and selective in what I read. I am not going to waste time on the OT, the Vedas, the Talmud which are way to long and contain a lot of legal and ritual stuff that are irrelevant to me.

But I can read the Gospel of Luke, the Analects of Confucius, the Dhammapada, the Daodejing, the Bhagavad Gita each in an afternoon and get a heavy dose of Eastern and Western ethics, and philosophy.

There are exegetes out there who will tell you that what you are doing is treating the faith like a buffet. Which is fine (everyone does it), but it hardly makes any sense theologically. If, as has been established by the Church, the faith REQUIRES both OT and NT together.

But you are in good company. The Dispensationalists try to weasel out of jots and tittles of the law despite Christ's suggestion that not one shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You are not in any way a dogmatic Christian. That said, the reality is that the story of the Virgin Birth, dying for the sins of the world, and then coming back from the dead is laughable. 'Hey honey, I'm pregnant, but it was God, not my horny boss. I got that promotion on merit. In fact, I'm STILL a Virgin!'

And yet the prime directive of Christianity is that you believe that utter bullshit story. And if you don't, you will burn in hell. Um...... no thanks?

In the modern world, so is the aversion to eat pork.

OTOH, in the ancient world, less sophisticated peoples simply misperceived the event. Not to mention most of those stories grew after Jesus was nailed to a cross.

One of my favorite John Wayne movies is "The Man who shot Liberty Valance" and this astute observation: "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

There was Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings and there's those who came after who turned his teachings into a dogmatic religion. The Bible wasn't canonized until three centuries later; longer than the time between us now and the time of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and John Adams.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I didn't realize that was an option for the unchanging and eternal God. My bad.

(Last I checked Marcionism is still a heresy though).

Actually the way most Protestants (especially those on the more conservative end) dispose of the OT laws is through "DISPENSATIONALISM" which is relatively new but has some parallels in some of the early Church Fathers.

As per usual, unable to post without insulting.

What fools, the ignorant, the mentally challenged and evil people don't realize is that there's God and there's mankind's interpretation of God.

God never changes. God is God. Mankind's perception of God does change as shown by the vast difference between the OT and the NT.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

In the modern world, so is the aversion to eat pork.

OTOH, in the ancient world, less sophisticated peoples simply misperceived the event. Not to mention most of those stories grew after Jesus was nailed to a cross.

One of my favorite John Wayne movies is "The Man who shot Liberty Valance" and this astute observation: "This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

There was Jesus of Nazareth and his teachings and there's those who came after who turned his teachings into a dogmatic religion. The Bible wasn't canonized until three centuries later; longer than the time between us now and the time of Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and John Adams.

There's also a possibility that the Isaiahan prophecy from which we get the "virgin birth" was a mistranslation of the Hebrew word almah (עַלְמָה) which can mean just a young unmarried woman.

It may be that the authors of the Synoptic Gospels that discuss the "virgin birth" were doing so because of a translation error.