Hi -- New here.

Is there any reason for anyone to believe you....
Well, as you know, so far I've proven to be reliable. I make lots of claims, and when someone challenges the claims that can be resolved using external, verifiable sources, I do so, and it turns out that what I said was correct. Does that prove that I'm not lying about personal things that couldn't be tested that way? No, admittedly it doesn't. Maybe I'm only honest when it comes to the kinds of facts and figures that are check-able, and I lie when it comes to stuff you'd have to take on faith.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide for yourself whether I'm just a new ID for an existing user. Ask yourself, do I sound like anyone else you know here? Do my arguments sound like ones you've heard before? Is my use of language familiar? Am I in the rut worn by some other poster? If so, I'd be curious to know who that is. If not, then that's consistent with the idea I'm someone new, isn't it?
 
What makes you think it appears wrong? I am debating it. I've laid out my reasoning, backed up by lots of numbers, for why the right-wing Mercatus Center estimates for the cost are too high. To summarize: Australia and Canada --arguably the two nations most like the US, demographically and culturally-- each have Medicare for all, and the cost in each is less than half what the Mercatus boys tell us it would cost here.

I've also laid out my reasoning for the statement that even if the Koch propaganda were right, that would STILL represent a net savings. Their own number has the annual budget hit for Medicare for all being well below what we currently spend on healthcare, much less what we're projected to spend over the next ten years.

And I've laid out my reasoning for why it's affordable in tax terms -- I've shown how a tax hike that wouldn't even be sufficient to bring us up to the average per-GDP tax burden for developed nations would be enough to cover the transition.

If you dispute those arguments, it would be helpful if you did so with specificity, so we could dig in.



I assumed you'd used a biased propaganda source --the right-wing, Koch-funded Mercatus Center-- because the number you quoted was the one they've been shilling. Was that incorrect? If not, please feel free to share your source. And if your view is that my source is dubious, explain why you believe so.



That's the whole point: I just showed how it actually is SIMPLE to pay for all those people's healthcare without bankrupting the economy. This isn't just a hypothetical argument. We have about three dozen test cases of other nations --nearly all of them with less to work with than us in terms of GDP per capita-- have managed to afford higher-quality healthcare for all without bankrupting the economy. Why would the US, alone among all wealthy nations, be unable to do that?

I've shown how the numbers work. I've shown how even if our system, for some reason, wound up being twice as expensive as Australia's or Canada's per capita, we could still cover it with a tax hike that would leave the US relatively under-taxed (a lower tax burden as a share of GDP than most other wealthy nations). If you don't think those numbers work, could you identify why?



I've been very specific. I provided plenty of international benchmarks, and gave you the numbers to work with. What more would you like?



If it cost $32 trillion (over ten years), that would put its per capita cost at over twice as much as the per capita cost for essentially the same system in Canada and Australia. Why do you think it would cost us more than twice as much as it costs them? If anything, it should cost us less to buy the same things, since we have better economies of scale. We have bargaining power against drug companies, and bulk-purchasing power, that Australia and Canada could only dream of.

Let's take this out of the political sphere, where emotions cloud reason, and just re-imagine it as a business problem. Let's say you run a business with 5,000 employees, and you want to figure out how much it would cost to provide $100,000 of life insurance for each of them. So, you track down data from other companies. You find two companies with roughly the same kind of workforce you have, in terms of age, ethnicity, job functions, etc. You find that for them, a year of such life insurance costs an average of $30 per employee. Each of those companies is a lot smaller than yours, so they have less bargaining power to get a good price. So, how much should you expect the same benefit to cost you, per employee.

Well, if you work for the Mercatus Center, maybe your answer is $70 per employee. Maybe you think that despite those economies of scale, the best you could hope for is to pay over twice as much as those other companies do. But is that reasonable?



Again, take a look at what it costs in other leading nations. In Canada, the TOTAL COST of health care per person is $4,752 -- not just the tax hit, but everything, including all out-of-pocket expenditures. Would $4,752 be 60, 70, or 80% of your pay? I don't know what you earn, so maybe. But most of us would see net savings if we moved to that kind of system (which, remember, would drastically lower average out-of-pocket expenses, as well as replacing the existing health insurance and Medicare hits to the paycheck.

Sorry you lost all credibility when your main source was the Kaiser Foundation a liberal insurance company that only does business in a limited market.

Please try to keep your arguments down to short statements. I don't want to read War and Peace length arguments. And wade through extraneous bull to get the point.
 
Well, as you know, so far I've proven to be reliable. I make lots of claims, and when someone challenges the claims that can be resolved using external, verifiable sources, I do so, and it turns out that what I said was correct

Is that so? Where is the proof of these these assertions, sock?

Let me guess - it's somewhere else, and you won't show it when challenged. :rofl2:
 
Sorry you lost all credibility when your main source was the Kaiser Foundation a liberal insurance company that only does business in a limited market.

Attacking the source is a logical fallacy, Grump. If the Kaiser Foundation is incorrect, state how and be prepared to back it up. Otherwise, how are you better than the sock?
 
Earlier in the thread. I'd go back and find it for you, but since this is happening repeatedly, I now suspect you're just trolling (like when you claimed I hadn't answered the post about how I'm posting here during a week day, and then when I said I had, you required me to go find the post for you). I gave you the post number for that one, but at this point it's looking like you're being disingenuous or just lazy, so I'm not going to continue doing your work for you.

Good observation, Oneuli.

That is the MO for many of the people on the right here in JPP.
 
As you can surely see, that was grammatically in the subjunctive. I'm not claiming that I post like someone else. I'm saying that if the reason I'm suspected of being a sock puppet is that I post like someone else, I'd be curious to know who that is.

Same here.

I hope it's me. lol
 
Have you noticed she uses the liberal tactic of writing novel length posts. Her reply to me was around 12 paragraphs. Guess she doesn't know what Bullet statements are.
Do you have a short attention span? Would you prefer drawings? Do you need “Oneuli for Dummies”
 
As you can surely see, that was grammatically in the subjunctive. I'm not claiming that I post like someone else. I'm saying that if the reason I'm suspected of being a sock puppet is that I post like someone else, I'd be curious to know who that is.

No way I can know if you are a sock or not...but my guess would be you are not.

I have not seen anyone here come near the quality of your work.

If you keep arguing with Legion and Grumpy...you will tire soon. They will ask question after question...not truly caring about the answers.

If the bullshit drives you away...I really hope you find a way to tell those of us impressed (captivated) by your posts where you are going so we...I...can stop by and read more.

I hate to say this...but a poster with your talent is wasted here. This is not an intellectual site...nor a peaceful one.
 
Do you have a short attention span? Would you prefer drawings? Do you need need “Oneuli for Dummies”

LMAO. Well, as a Trump voter and Fox viewer, as well as a lifelong Reichwinger, he's more used to the Sesame Street style of receiving information. Maybe if she got some puppets and cute backdrops, set her well-informed opinions to snappy and easily-sung music?

Lesion would still demand links that go unread. *sigh*
 
Incorrect. I'd never even visited this forum until the day I signed up, earlier this week. Is there some reason you assume I'm not new?

He doesn't. He's just saying it in hopes of irritating you.

Some of these guys just shoot of their mouths for no reason other than that.
 
Sorry you lost all credibility when your main source was the Kaiser Foundation a liberal insurance company that only does business in a limited market.

If there's a specific claim you have an issue with, I'm happy to provide supporting documentation from other sources. Just specify which of the facts I present you don't believe. As for the Kaiser Family Foundation, it's not an insurance company. It's a public charity focused on healthcare issues. It is generally regarded as non-partisan. Its board of trustees includes Republicans like Olympia Snowe and Bill Frist, as well as non-partisan academics.

Please try to keep your arguments down to short statements.

I've noticed a tendency on political forums. If a liberal sticks to short statements, she is attacked for not providing specifics and supporting evidence. If she provides specifics and supporting evidence, she's accused of "War and Peace" length posts, to give the conservatives an excuse for not responding to those. There's no middle ground, because the point for conservatives is simply to avoid acknowledging inconvenient facts.

And wade through extraneous bull to get the point.

I'll make it very short for you. If you want the detailed support, you can find it above:

* The number you quoted come from a right-wing propaganda source.
* The number assumes Medicare for All would cost over twice as much, in the US, as similar systems cost in other leading countries.
* Even if it did cost that much, that would still be a reduction in total healthcare spending, relative to what we'll spend without the change.
* We can cover that cost with a tax hike that will leave US taxes below the average taxes in developed nations generally.
 
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Well, as you know, so far I've proven to be reliable. I make lots of claims, and when someone challenges the claims that can be resolved using external, verifiable sources, I do so, and it turns out that what I said was correct. Does that prove that I'm not lying about personal things that couldn't be tested that way? No, admittedly it doesn't. Maybe I'm only honest when it comes to the kinds of facts and figures that are check-able, and I lie when it comes to stuff you'd have to take on faith.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide for yourself whether I'm just a new ID for an existing user. Ask yourself, do I sound like anyone else you know here? Do my arguments sound like ones you've heard before? Is my use of language familiar? Am I in the rut worn by some other poster? If so, I'd be curious to know who that is. If not, then that's consistent with the idea I'm someone new, isn't it?

If there were someone here like you...

...I can just about guarantee they'd be bragging about it.
 
Sorry you lost all credibility when your main source was the Kaiser Foundation a liberal insurance company that only does business in a limited market.

Please try to keep your arguments down to short statements. I don't want to read War and Peace length arguments. And wade through extraneous bull to get the point.

And don't use big words...right?
 
Have you noticed she uses the liberal tactic of writing novel length posts. Her reply to me was around 12 paragraphs. Guess she doesn't know what Bullet statements are.

Funny, others have supposedly noticed that I'm too brief, and have demanded more specifics. Here's a pro-tip: there's no correct length. If I'm detailed, the excuse for not responding to the substance is that it was too lengthy, and if I'm briefer, the excuse for not responding is that I wasn't specific enough.
 
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