Islam is the Religion of Pinheads!

Dixie said:
One could hate abotion and still think the fetus is yet to have a soul.

You can also believe the moon is made of cheese, but without some evidence or proof to support your belief, you are not basing your belief in fact or reality. I have repeatedly asked, when does God infer a soul on a living human fetus? If you can't support your belief, you can't support what you believe in.

depends on the definition of life, which is the crux of the whole issue.

Well, of course! Like I said... show me your proof of when life begins, if it's not at conception, when is it? What element has to be added to a fetus to make it human life? It's really hard for me to just accept, that something which has its own DNA, nervous system, brain function, and heartbeat, is not yet a living organism. Can you define the criteria you use to determine it is not? If you can't, I think scientifically, you must conclude, it is indeed a living human organism and life has begun for it, at the point of conception. Any other view, would have to be supported by scientific evidence, and you've yet to provide any at all.
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I do not know the answer to your question about when a soul is imparted upon a deloping fetus, I dont think anyone does. You could carry your argument out even further and say a sperm has a soul. That is why I think the government should stay out of this and let the individuals make that decision for themselves.
 
Dixie said:
Dixie makes no distinction: It a human life that has a soul at the moment of conception. A "life" every bit as worthy as anyone else's. It's not the child's fault the rape happened.

This is true. Many people who oppose abortion, also oppose it in the case of rape or incest. I personally don't believe in abortion under any circumstance, but I am willing to allow 'free will' for people in our society who became pregnant through no choice of their own, and allow the law to permit women who have been raped, to get an abortion, if that is what they so decide. It's as far as I can possibly go, as a Christian, to allow the intentional and malicious taking of innocent life, and I struggle with that.

From my perspective, and maybe this is a poor analogy, but you could liken it to a person going to a buffet and filling their plate with food, then not eating it, as opposed to a person going to a restaurant and being served a heaping plate of food they didn't order. In one instance, it is justified that the person can waste the food, in the other, it's not. I have no idea of how God would judge someone who had an abortion after rape, that is not my place. I do know how God views the malicious taking of innocent life, he is very clear on that one. I also know it's my duty as a Christian, to speak out against it, and denounce it a sin against God, which indeed, it is.
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You are a truely sick and whacked out person...

If you truely belive that abortion is MURDER of a child... why does it make it okay just because the mother was not responsable for the creation of that child?
 
If you truely belive that abortion is MURDER of a child... why does it make it okay just because the mother was not responsable for the creation of that child?

I never said it made it "okay" and I wish you would stop lying about it to make your invalid points. I clearly said, I am opposed to ALL abortions, and I think it's wrong in ALL circumstances. I do think an argument can be made for justification of abortion in those rare circumstances, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument, just that one can be made. It's not my right to infer my personal religious beliefs on others, but it IS my right, and duty as a Christian, to condemn the malicious and intentional taking of innocent human life, particularly when that life was produced by free will and as the direct consequence of choice.
 
Dixie said:
If you truely belive that abortion is MURDER of a child... why does it make it okay just because the mother was not responsable for the creation of that child?

I never said it made it "okay" and I wish you would stop lying about it to make your invalid points. I clearly said, I am opposed to ALL abortions, and I think it's wrong in ALL circumstances. I do think an argument can be made for justification of abortion in those rare circumstances, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument, just that one can be made. It's not my right to infer my personal religious beliefs on others, but it IS my right, and duty as a Christian, to condemn the malicious and intentional taking of innocent human life, particularly when that life was produced by free will and as the direct consequence of choice.
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Condemn all you want. No decent person gives a hoot what a Christo-fascist thinks. In fact, such conemnation is something of a badge of honor.
 
Dixie said:
If you truely belive that abortion is MURDER of a child... why does it make it okay just because the mother was not responsable for the creation of that child?

I never said it made it "okay" and I wish you would stop lying about it to make your invalid points. I clearly said, I am opposed to ALL abortions, and I think it's wrong in ALL circumstances. I do think an argument can be made for justification of abortion in those rare circumstances, this doesn't mean I agree with that argument, just that one can be made. It's not my right to infer my personal religious beliefs on others, but it IS my right, and duty as a Christian, to condemn the malicious and intentional taking of innocent human life, particularly when that life was produced by free will and as the direct consequence of choice.
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So you and I are both pro-choice... its just your idea about under what circumstances the woman should be allowed to have a choice is in a different place than mine. You draw the line based on how the "child" was created. So we are both pro-choice, just at different fact points. We both agree there are times and situations where the government should leave the decision up to the person carying the "child".

I am against all abortion also, just dont think the governmetn should decide that for others, you dont think they should make rules for when the woman was a victim of rape.
 
I do not know the answer to your question about when a soul is imparted upon a deloping fetus, I dont think anyone does.

God knows. According to His word, this happens in the womb, as soon as life begins. So, it seems, I have an answer from a fairly good source, and you have no answer... who is most likely correct?

You could carry your argument out even further and say a sperm has a soul.

A sperm is not a living human life form with distinct DNA, nervous system, brain function, and heartbeat... if it were, I would agree. Some theologians believe part of your soul begins development with your grandmother. Don't ask me how they come up with that, I've heard the argument made, but I don't remember how they made it. Until I see some evidence that God infers a soul at some point other than conception, I have to go with what the Bible says, and it clearly states that a life without spirit is dead, which indicates, if you are alive, you have a soul.

That is why I think the government should stay out of this and let the individuals make that decision for themselves.

I can agree in the case of a 'no-fault' pregnancy, that should be up to the individual and their God. I disagree in all other cases, because it's murder of an innocent human life, without justification, and with malice. We pass laws everyday, against things we don't condone, so I don't feel it's not the government's business to do this, any more than it's none of their business if I shoot someone or commit any other crime.
 
A sperm is not a living human life form with distinct DNA, nervous system, brain function, and heartbeat... if it were, I would agree
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well, a fetus does not have a brain, heartbeat, etc as soon as it is concieved .....
 
Dixie said:

"I can agree in the case of a 'no-fault' pregnancy, that should be up to the individual and their God."

See Einstein and I are both Pro-Choice. The only difference is that I dont assign fault to a woman who has become pregnant so every pregnancy is "no fault" from my perspective.
 
I do not know the answer to your question about when a soul is imparted upon a deloping fetus.

Then how can you be certain it's not at the point of conception, when life begins?

I think the government should stay out of this

You agree, it is wrong to murder someone, correct? Well... what if someone is attacking you, and gives you no other option than to kill them or be killed? Is is then "okay" or justifiable, for you to kill them? Of course it is, and it's called "justifiable homicide". So, we often establish justifications for doing something that is otherwise wrong to do, without regard for what the Bible says, or what our personal feelings might be.

This is the same thing, with regard to abortion. In the case of rape, incest, or life of the mother, and irrespective of theology, a justification can be made for ending human life. Whether God will hold someone accountable, is a different matter, and one that doesn't pertain to the argument, and is between that person and God alone. Whether a Christian thinks it's wrong, doesn't mean this is how we establish our law as society. Murder is still murder, regardless of your spiritual faith, and we have a responsibility as a civilized society, to condemn the practice of intentionally murdering innocent life, with no justification.
 
well, a fetus does not have a brain, heartbeat, etc as soon as it is concieved .....

Technically speaking, yes it does. It hasn't yet developed, but the elements are there, unless you can present some scientific evidence that other elements are introduced to produce a brain, heartbeat, etc. Which, you haven't.

The only difference is that I dont assign fault to a woman who has become pregnant

Really? So, a woman just becomes pregnant through no fault of her own actions? Please tell me how this is, because my understanding is, she has to engage in sexual relations with a fertile male, to become pregnant. Do you know something different?
 
Dixie said:
I do not know the answer to your question about when a soul is imparted upon a deloping fetus.

Then how can you be certain it's not at the point of conception, when life begins?
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I cant be certain, and I dont think anyone else can. Thats why I think its questionable enough to be left up to the individual.
 
And when God gives a fetus a soul is certainly something I would not begin to presume to know.

Well, sure you do, otherwise, you wouldn't have a problem with the elimination of a mere clump of cells inside a woman, it would be no big deal at all! The fact that you detest abortion, proves that you know precisely when the fetus becomes a living human life, with a soul.

No...when I said I did not know, that is what I meant. I do not know the moment that God gives a fetus a soul and neither do you.

I see no reason to suggest that he is bound by any set time frame for that action. For all we know, he gives a fetus a soul at the six month time frame.

No, we DO know, the Bible tells us. At the moment you become alive, you have a soul.
no...the Bible does NOT tell us when God gives us our souls.

Do you have some communication from God which states uniquivocally that he always gives embryos a soul at the moment of conception?

God is consistent. He always does the same thing in every case. In instance after instance in the Bible, it is inferred that your life begins in the womb, thus you must have a soul, because without a soul, you are dead.

You may in fact get your soul while in the womb, but that is not synonymous with getting it at conception

As for your stupid burning fertility clinic question, I am not going to respond to it anymore, I have answered your question, I have pointed out how it's a flawed example with no basis in scientific principle or reason, and I decline to comment any further on something so absurd and ridiculous. Let's stick to science and the Scriptures, shall we?

no.... let's NOT stick to science and scriptures. Let's consider ethics as well. My question is only stupid because the honest answer thereof puts you in an awkward position and the dishonest answer is laughable in its transparent dishonesty. It is now flawed in any way. Fertility clinics routinely keep several embryos from couples seeking in vitro fertilization "on ice" until the couple has no further need for them.... then they are destroyed (and you have previously stated your opposition to letting THOSE embryos that would be flushed anyway from being used for stem cell research - another ethical conundrum for you)... my point is pretty basic. If YOU and YOUR wife were attempting to conceive via that method and had several embryos "on ice" at a fertility clinic, those would be your children - human beings in every sense of your definition.... and my question was: would you rush into a burning fertility clinic to save your "children" who were still just frozen embryos? And if not, would you rush into a burning building to save your daughter? If the answers are different for embryos and daughters, what does that say about your beliefs? YOu KNOW the only reason you avoid this question is because it exposes the hypocrisy of your position.
 
Dixie: "but it IS my right, and duty as a Christian, to condemn the malicious and intentional taking of innocent human life, particularly when that life was produced by free will and as the direct consequence of [uchoice."

Fascinating.

Dixie is now estabishing all sorts of exceptions and caveats to when and if an abortion should evidently be outlawed.

Some of the criteria has to be:

-malicious
-produced of free will and choice
-Exceptions made for rape.
-Exceptions possible for incest?
-Excpetions possibly for when the fetus has catastrophic medical abnormalities?


Dixie, you're getting more and more pro-choice by the minute.

And to think, you really had me going with all those solemn statments about a human life and a soul being created "at the moment of conception"; abortion is "murder", and an embryo is a "human life" wothy of protection, regardless of the cirmcustances in which it was concieved.


It doesn't appear you can make up your mind on when abortion is murder of "an innocent life", and when its not murder. You keep adding caveats and exceptions.

As for me? Its pretty simple. I don't have to keep adding caveats, rules, and tap dances.

It should be between a woman, her doctor, and her God.
 
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Would this discussion be on a differnet track if we were discussing an islamic fetus or a fetus fathered by OBL ?
 
And to think, you really had me going with all those solemn statments about a human life and a soul being created "at the moment of conception"; abortion is "murder", and an embryo is a "human life" wothy of protection, regardless of the cirmcustances in which it was concieved.

No, that's really what I personally believe. I also believe that if you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior, you will burn for eternity in hell. I don't support passing a law for everyone to be saved. My personal beliefs are not the issue with regard to our societal rules and laws. They guide my personal belief, and they may motivate me to condone or condemn certain things, but I don't believe a free society should be forced to live by my personal faith.

You seem to be confused here, you seem to think that whatever Dixie believes, is how Dixie believes society should be. That would make me a Fascist Totalitarian. I understand we are a free society of different people with different beliefs, and I respect the beliefs of others. My position against killing innocent life, is the same across the board, I am opposed to it, in all cases.

I understand that non-Christians don't care what God says about killing innocent life, but most civilized societies oppose the killing of innocent life on ethical and moral grounds, not religious ones. This is why I've presented evidence that a fetus is human life, the most innocent among us. So far, no one can contradict that. If it were purely a religious thing, I would simply say, God forbids it, and that's that! The truth is, murdering innocent life is not solely a religious thing, it's quite different. While my religious faith condemns it, so does most other faiths, and most civilized people, for that matter.
 
It doesn't appear you can make up your mind on when abortion is murder of "an innocent life", and when its not murder. You keep adding caveats and exceptions.

Well... allow me to make it perfectly clear... Abortion is the malicious killing of innocent human life in ALL cases. Just like shooting someone in the head is killing someone, in ALL cases. Can someone justify this action? Perhaps, which is why I am willing to acknowledge there can be exceptions, and justifiable circumstances. Because I believe a person has the right to defend themselves against attack, doesn't mean I think killing people is okay, just that an argument can be made for justification. Whether the justification is acceptable to God, is a completely different matter, and one I can't speak for. I know how I feel about it, I know what I would do personally, and I know how God would view my actions because he tells me in the Bible, but that doesn't mean I think all of society should conform to my personal beliefs.
 
no.... let's NOT stick to science and scriptures.

Yes, let's do! Because I refuse to continue entertaining your profoundly ignorant and stupid analogy, which has no basis in science, fact, or scripture.
 
no...the Bible does NOT tell us when God gives us our souls.

Yes, indeed it does. Our soul is obtained from God as soon as we become a living thing. I've presented the scripture to back this up, and you've yet to produce any scripture to contradict this.
 
Einstein, why should the fact that the woman was raped make it legal? What about that fact should make "killing" a "child" legal?
 
Dixie said:
no...the Bible does NOT tell us when God gives us our souls.

Yes, indeed it does. Our soul is obtained from God as soon as we become a living thing. I've presented the scripture to back this up, and you've yet to produce any scripture to contradict this.
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Scientific facts now Dix, not religion, or is your tune changing again ?
What happened to the DNA, heart beating, etc ?
Haas science even proven we have a soul ? if not this is based purely on religious beliefs, which you are fully entitled to, just don't leglislate them on others who might not believe as you do.
 
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