Islam is the Religion of Pinheads!

[maineman]

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
I believe this speaks of dead to God spiritually speaking not physically speaking.

The verse is a comparison, the last part does indeed deal with your spiritual relationship with God, and it compares it directly with the physical aspect of a body with no soul (i.e; spirit). 'Just as a body with no spirit is dead', means what it literally says, that if you are without a soul, you are dead, in other words, you can't be alive and not have a soul, any more than you can claim you are a Christian and not uphold the standards of Christianity spiritually.

and Christians cannot be "alive" without their souls.... but that does NOT equate with souls attaching themselves to two cells as they join.

 

[NOVA]

Life begins at conception. Reference after reference is found of this. Babies in the womb are referred to as "children" and several instances, the Bible indicates they were given souls by God while in the womb, not after they were born.


You redneck bible-thumper: abortions have been performed for thousands of years in all societies, including christian ones. Attempts to outlaw abortions didn't even happen until the mid 1800s.

You moron: here's the real test to see if you think a fertilized embryo is a "human child":


-All of us might run into a burning building to save a human child.

-We all KNOW you wouldn't run into a burning fertility clinic, risking your life, to save a petri dish of fertilized blastocysts. Ergo, you're full of shit.

Of course its not a child, lamebrain....a child is the period of life between birth to adult....but the embryo is a human being...in its earliest stage of development.....a living human being....and it always will be a living human being until its death....

 

[NOVA]

You can argue religion but not science....

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Essentials of Human Embryology
William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic.....

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

* Human Embryology, 3rd ed.
Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

* Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17.

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

* Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.
E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The quote from James flat out does NOT state that a fetus has a soul from conception. And the faith without works argument has absolutely nothing to do with conception...but is an argument against the faith by grace alone arguments of Paul.

The verse in James most certainly does state 'just as a body without a spirit is dead', which means that a body can be nothing except dead, if it doesn't have a spirit or soul. A human embryo is a living organism, it is human, and it can't be without spirit or soul, and not be dead, according to James.

In addition, the spiritual entity of God can not possibly "know" something that has no spirit or soul, much less anoint them leaders and apostles, and such. This is found throughout the Bible. Man is created in the image of God, and there is no reference to God later adding a soul, nor does it make any logical or theological sense for this to be the case.

Because you have some gross misinterpretation of the Bible, doesn't mean you've proven or disproved something. I am still waiting on ANY THING YOU HAVE to support your silly and ridiculous assertion that humans have no soul, at conception, or ANY point in their life. How long do I have to entertain your blustering and bullshit, before you start presenting some cold hard evidence to support your idiotic viewpoints?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

and Christians cannot be "alive" without their souls.... but that does NOT equate with souls attaching themselves to two cells as they join.

Right, Christians can't be alive, Jews can't be alive, Atheists can't be alive, without having a soul, it's impossible to be a living human, and not have a soul. Souls do not attach themselves to anything, God bestows a soul on every living human, and until you can present some sort of evidence to contradict what I've presented, he does so at conception, from the best source of information we have on the matter, the Holy Bible.

 

[maineman]

The quote from James flat out does NOT state that a fetus has a soul from conception. And the faith without works argument has absolutely nothing to do with conception...but is an argument against the faith by grace alone arguments of Paul.

The verse in James most certainly does state 'just as a body without a spirit is dead', ywhich means that a body can be nothing except dead, if it doesn't have a spirit or soul. A human embryo is a living organism, it is human, and it can't be without spirit or soul, and not be dead, according to James.

your "interpretation" of what you claim the passage from James to mean is about as worthless as a bucket of warm spit. Do you even begin to understand that? YOU are a fucking gadfly.... who can NEVER back up his bullshit with anything other than off-point quotes out of context which require your "interpretation" as to their meaning. I read the passage from James and I cannot begin to see how you would say it says what you interpret it to say, let alone "certainly state" your idiocy.

 

[Jarod]

What about the fact that the child's father is a rapist is justification for killing that child?

I didn't say this was the justification, nor did I say that I agreed with the justification, just that it could be made. If the woman, who has to bear the burden of carrying the child, did not make the decision to have sex and become pregnant, she has reasonable justification for ending the life of the unborn human fetus inside of her. I don't agree that she should do this, or that this is the right thing to do, or that God will forgive her for it, or that it's acceptable in the eyes of God, only that she has some justification for it. Abortions performed for the sake of convenience, following the willful act of engaging in sex, which is understood and known to cause pregnancy, is nothing more than premeditated murder without any justification whatsoever. In a civilized society, this should be considered wrong, whether you are religious or not.

Why is the fact that she did not choose to have sex a basis for making the "killing" of the "child" legal?

 

[maineman]

and Christians cannot be "alive" without their souls.... but that does NOT equate with souls attaching themselves to two cells as they join.

Right, Christians can't be alive, Jews can't be alive, Atheists can't be alive, without having a soul, it's impossible to be a living human, and not have a soul. Souls do not attach themselves to anything, God bestows a soul on every living human, and until you can present some sort of evidence to contradict what I've presented, he does so at conception, from the best source of information we have on the matter, the Holy Bible.

Until I can present some sort of evidence to the contrary, your opinion that souls attach themselves at the point of conception, somehow becomes "fact"?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Fuck you..... your interpretation of the Bible is your interpretation....and nothing more than that. I am a devout Christian and I interpret the Bible to mean something completely different....so until you can present some sort of evidence that contradicts MY interpretation, you are out of luck.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath

 

[Cypress]

A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote.

Hiplew,

Thanks for the astonishing information that an embryo or a zygote marks the beginning of human development. You're a regular Einstein.

Now, can you point to a post where anyone said that an embryo or a zygote wasn't the beginning of human development?

 

[Cypress]

"Right, Christians can't be alive, Jews can't be alive, Atheists can't be alive, without having a soul, it's impossible to be a living human, and not have a soul. Souls do not attach themselves to anything, God bestows a soul on every living human, and until you can present some sort of evidence to contradict what I've presented, he does so at conception, from the best source of information we have on the matter, the Holy Bible."


Oh man, this is hilarious.

Dixie actually thinks the bible is the "best" source of empirical and scientific information we have. That its the final word.


Sorry Dix: a book that claims a man lived inside the belly of a whale, doesn't pass muster for me as an expert source on human evolution or human biology.

 

[uscitizen]

Remember those bible worshippers wanted to kill or imprision the early scientists.
Imagine the Galaxy not revolving around the earth. And trying to see heaven with those satanic telescopes...Blasphmy!!!

 

[NOVA]

A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote.

Hiplew,

Thanks for the astonishing information that an embryo or a zygote marks the beginning of human development. You're a regular Einstein.

Now, can you point to a post where anyone said that an embryo or a zygote wasn't the beginning of human development?

Yeah...Well heres a couple....

Originally Posted by maineman View Post
since most folks on the planet believe that life begins at birth, I don't think you can show me where Jesus thought that fetuses - especially those in the first or second trimester - were considered innocent LIFE.


Originally Posted by Cypress

You redneck bible-thumper: abortions have been performed for thousands of years in all societies, including christian ones. Attempts to outlaw abortions didn't even happen until the mid 1800s.

You moron: here's the real test to see if you think a fertilized embryo is a "human child":


Originally Posted by maineman

I do not personally believe that fetuses in the early stages of development are human life. I do not personally believe that Jesus would have thought so either...but that is, admittedly, just my own opinion.
--------

Of course you can nitpick the use of the word 'child', as I know you will...
but we know human development begins at conception....from that point on it only a matter of physical growth....the fetus doesn't become anything other a HUMAN baby, then a HUMAN child, then a HUMAN adult....because it the beginning of HUMAN LIFE....and it all has nothing to do with religious belief....its scientific fact.....denied only by pinheads for a political goal...

-----------------
The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

Essentials of Human Embryology
William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic.....

Human Embryology & Teratology
Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

* Human Embryology, 3rd ed.
Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

* Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics
J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman, (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17.

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

* Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.
E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."
http://www.justplainpolitics.com/images/smilies/funnyface.gif

 

[uscitizen]

Interesting to note that the almost zero particiaption in the topic of abortions on this board ? It is pretty much elxclusively men discussing a primarially womens problem.
Why is that ?

Input from the guys or gals....

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I read the passage from James and I cannot begin to see how you would say it says what you interpret it to say....

Well it looks fairly plain and simple to me... I bet a 2nd grader could "interpret" what it says! Let's break it down into the simplest elementary form...

a body... meaning, in this case, a human body...

without... that which does not have...

a spirit... otherwise known as a "soul"...

is... definitive qualifier of affirmative or positive actuality....

dead... without life, not alive, not among the living.

There is simply no other way to interpret this, in my opinion.



discussing a primarially womens problem

Intentional taking of innocent human life, is not exclusively a woman's problem.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Until I can present some sort of evidence to the contrary, your opinion that souls attach themselves at the point of conception...

I hate to keep correcting liars, but you keep insisting on making this false statement. I have never argued that a soul attaches itself to anything. A soul, to the best of my knowledge, has no ability to attach itself to anything, or do anything of its own volition. I really do wish you would stop spreading lies about what I say, it's getting rather old, particularly when people can easily go back and read where I didn't ever say that.

You said the other day, you always try to speak as God would have you to speak, and I am curious, does your God tell you to lie your ass off about what people say, or is that something you also "interpreted" into the Scriptures?

 

[uscitizen]

I read the passage from James and I cannot begin to see how you would say it says what you interpret it to say....

Well it looks fairly plain and simple to me... I bet a 2nd grader could "interpret" what it says! Let's break it down into the simplest elementary form...

a body... meaning, in this case, a human body...

without... that which does not have...

a spirit... otherwise known as a "soul"...

is... definitive qualifier of affirmative or positive actuality....

dead... without life, not alive, not among the living.

There is simply no other way to interpret this, in my opinion.



discussing a primarially womens problem

Intentional taking of innocent human life, is not exclusively a woman's problem.

LOL, why did you leave off the rest ?
it goes something like as faith without works is dead or something like that.

Kinda changes things a bit.

 

[uscitizen]

You are not seeing the picture here Dix, Why are the women not participating to any degree , but it is a hot topic among many of the males ?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

LOL, why did you leave off the rest ?
it goes something like as faith without works is dead or something like that.

Kinda changes things a bit.

No, it doesn't change anything. The statement is a comparative statement, you know what that is, right? Where one thing is compared to another thing. It is like an analogy. In any event, the first part of the statement is where a body without a spirit is described as dead, which means, it can't be living. This isn't really all that hard, and I can't believe that grown adults can't understand it, it's almost as if you just purposely don't want to try and understand it. The verse in full context, is indeed talking about our relationship with God, and it compares it with a body that lacks a soul, or a dead body, if our relationship is empty. So, it's actually a testament about our spiritual faith, yet it reveals an important detail pertaining to this argument about a life without a soul.

Here, let me give you another example... "Just as a wet dog stinks, so does your butt!" Now, this statement is not about wet dogs, it's about your butt, however, the fact is revealed, that a wet dog, does of course, stink. See how that works? There are many comparative examples like this in life, you just have to be intelligent enough to recognize them when you read them.

I suppose Maine or some other pinhead, made such a challenge to me, because they thought I could actually produce a scripture that said... "When thou art conceived, God bestowed a soul upon you." But that doesn't appear in the Bible. This doesn't mean it isn't so, just that this sort of specific indisputable definitive and unmistakable statement doesn't exist in the Bible. And I have a feeling, even if it did exist in that context, Maine could twist and mangle it to mean something entirely different, because it is far more important for him to uphold the principles of Liberalism, than Christianity. So sad.

The challenge still stands for any of you pinheads who want to give it a try, show me where the Bible indicates the soul is bestowed by God at any other point in life. Since man is made in God's image, it's hard for me to imagine him being made without a soul, doesn't that seem a little far fetched? It certainly does to this Christian believer. In any event, if you are still not certain, don't you imagine it would be best to err on the side of logic and caution, and assume God gives you a soul when he gives you a life? What if you are absolutely wrong? Do you think God is going to believe you didn't know any better? Especially given the fact that no one can present any evidence to support your absurd view... You think he'll buy that load of crap? I somehow doubt it, but then, I ain't God.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You are not seeing the picture here Dix, Why are the women not participating to any degree , but it is a hot topic among many of the males ?

Well, gee... maybe that has something to do with the fact that there are FAR more males here, than females? Care did weigh in back on page 5, so we've heard from her already. Who else is out there? Darla? Desh? Neither of them respond to my threads anyway, so it's no big surprise they aren't responding to this one. I think you are making too much of this, I really do believe it has more to do with the ratio of men to women here, and not the topic. But it's pretty clever of you to interject that thought in an attempt to divert the conversation and argument, which you are so bitterly losing.

 

[maineman]

I read the passage from James and I cannot begin to see how you would say it says what you interpret it to say....

Well it looks fairly plain and simple to me... I bet a 2nd grader could "interpret" what it says! Let's break it down into the simplest elementary form...

a body... meaning, in this case, a human body...

without... that which does not have...

a spirit... otherwise known as a "soul"...

is... definitive qualifier of affirmative or positive actuality....

dead... without life, not alive, not among the living.

There is simply no other way to interpret this, in my opinion.

I don't think that "spirit" is synonymous with "soul" in that passage. I believe that the "spirit" being discussed was the Holy Spirit that Jesus left with us... if people do not accept that spirit they are "dead" metaphorically. And as I pointed out, James was making that statement, not in relation to when embryos receive their soul but in relation to the "grace" versus "works" debate that consumed much of the writings of the early Christian scholars. Paul and James are diametrically opposed in that debate and the passage you quoted was part of James' writings about that subject. It has absolutely nothing to do with the instantaneous humanity of zygotes. And you still refuse to answer my simple question: would you feel compelled to save your "children" if they were being burned?