McCain's surge

[Battleborne]

Take your time.............

I have a client right now but I will be back later to answer this.

Your client is your bread and butter...this is just debate!

 

[WRL]

Jesus....just because you didn't hear about it on Fox news or NewsMax doesn't mean it didn't happen, or didn't get reported.

I gave you the link to the official US government site.

The report is the consensus finding of the US intelligence community, and endorsed by every republican and democratic senator on the intelligence committee.

And it states, that after three years of occupying iraq, all evidence indicates that saddam was not aiding al qaeda, Zarqawi, or Ansar Al Islam, and in fact he considered them a threat to his regime and was trying to spy on them.

Oh great, so for all I know Kucinich wrote it.

 

[WRL]

This one connection to terrorism is a drop in the bucket to all the evidence I posted. While I think such revelations would appear on a google search, easily, and they did not, it's still a drop in the bucket.

 

[Socrtease]

In the military past the rank of Sgt and Lt...and was a General...I would take the fight to the enemy wherever it was located...Iran,Iraq,Afghanistan.Pakistan and I would not be PC about it...they are all bad apples...perversion,corruption,torture,rape,cold blooded killers...to be totally honest I could give a shit about 'water boarding' or any other instrument needed to get to the truth and save innocent lives! But hey thats just me...I am not a bleeding heart when it comes to saving my kids from having to have this fight continued forever...your call counselor...!

I am no bleeding heart either. But I do believe that our army is the representative of our country even in war. We do not condone torture of our people by others and we do not torture. Torture has been proven over and over to extract whatever statement is required to get the torture to stop. Do I care if they deprive them of sleep? Hell no, the army did that to me many times during training and it wasn't torture just a pain in my ass. You say you would do whatever to keep your kids from having to fight this forever. Well using war only to combat terrorism is exactly what you will be doing. The revamping of the intelligence gathering agencies has gotten us good info. More than we will probably ever know. But the war in Iraq has not gotten us one step closer to ending the war on terror. Instead we now have children in Iraq learning to HATE the US. They are throwing grenades at our soldiers. I am sorry that Saddam was such a son of bitch but he was a son of a bitch by our making, or at least by our apathy. We knew and quietly approved of his use of chemical weapons on Iran. We said very carefully worded things about his use of them on the kurds early on and it was only after he was a full fledged enemy that we denounced it.

 

[Socrtease]

This one connection to terrorism is a drop in the bucket to all the evidence I posted. While I think such revelations would appear on a google search, easily, and they did not, it's still a drop in the bucket.

The report is 151 pages long. In an excerpt that discusses Saddam's inteview with the FBI he told the FBI that he did not view the US as an enemy only that he opposed US policy and that had he wanted to ally with an enemy of the US he would have allied with North Korea or China.

Tariq Aziz said that Saddam did not trust Islamists and that when the Taliban came into power in Afghanistan Iraq deliberately avoided opening an embasy in Afghanistan and that when it was apparent that Wahabists came to Iraq they issued a decree outlawing them and threatening them with death. Pages 67 through 69 are full of FBI reports of Iraqs opposition to Islamists.

DIA reports that they had NO CREDIBLE evidence that the facility at Salman Pak was used to train non iraqis after 1991 and that prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom the DIA assessed that Salman Pak was used to train foreign fighters who were there to fight OVERTLY against US forces. Included at the Salman Pax facility was a derilict plane and train intended for counter terrorism training. THESE REPORTS COME FROM THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY POSTWAR.

FINALLY WILLIE you dishonest ass I typed in Report of the Select Committee on Intelligence Postwar findings Iraq terrorism and got 17200 hits on GOOGLE. You can find reference to it EVERYWHERE. If you are going to lie you should do it better.

 

[Cypress]

The report is 151 pages long. In an excerpt that discusses Saddam's inteview with the FBI he told the FBI that he did not view the US as an enemy only that he opposed US policy and that had he wanted to ally with an enemy of the US he would have allied with North Korea or China.

Tariq Aziz said that Saddam did not trust Islamists and that when the Taliban came into power in Afghanistan Iraq deliberately avoided opening an embasy in Afghanistan and that when it was apparent that Wahabists came to Iraq they issued a decree outlawing them and threatening them with death. Pages 67 through 69 are full of FBI reports of Iraqs opposition to Islamists.

DIA reports that they had NO CREDIBLE evidence that the facility at Salman Pak was used to train non iraqis after 1991 and that prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom the DIA assessed that Salman Pak was used to train foreign fighters who were there to fight OVERTLY against US forces. Included at the Salman Pax facility was a derilict plane and train intended for counter terrorism training. THESE REPORTS COME FROM THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY POSTWAR.

FINALLY WILLIE you dishonest ass I typed in Report of the Select Committee on Intelligence Postwar findings Iraq terrorism and got 17200 hits on GOOGLE. You can find reference to it EVERYWHERE. If you are going to lie you should do it better.

Oops.

I told him that just because it wasn't reported on Fox News or the Limbaugh show, doesn't mean this wasn't reported widely in the real media.

 

[WRL]

The report is 151 pages long. In an excerpt that discusses Saddam's inteview with the FBI he told the FBI that he did not view the US as an enemy only that he opposed US policy and that had he wanted to ally with an enemy of the US he would have allied with North Korea or China.

Oh Great well if Saddam said so, it must be true, fact is he paid 25,000 to the families of suicide bombers, he had al qeada terrorists running freely in his nation, using government services, and setting up terrorist operations against a common enemy he shared with Saddam, but if Saddam denies it... Saddam praised the 9/11 attacks, and urged Iraqi's to jihad, so if your dishonest ass has to lie, pick something where there isn't a mountain of evidence to the contrary.


Tariq Aziz said that Saddam did not trust Islamists and that when the Taliban came into power in Afghanistan Iraq deliberately avoided opening an embasy in Afghanistan and that when it was apparent that Wahabists came to Iraq they issued a decree outlawing them and threatening them with death. Pages 67 through 69 are full of FBI reports of Iraqs opposition to Islamists.

Laughable, aside from the vocal/financial/cooperation, they where completely opposed to them. Fact is Saddam wasn't Bin Laden, true, but it doesn't mean that Iraq, and Al Qeada, or similar terrorists organizations who shared a common enemy in the US didn't collaborate, in fact there is a moutain of undeniable evidence that he did.

DIA reports that they had NO CREDIBLE evidence that the facility at Salman Pak was used to train non iraqis after 1991 and that prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom the DIA assessed that Salman Pak was used to train foreign fighters who were there to fight OVERTLY against US forces. Included at the Salman Pax facility was a derilict plane and train intended for counter terrorism training. THESE REPORTS COME FROM THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY POSTWAR.

I googled the headline offered and several variations of it and found nothing, I'm going to download a pdf viewer, and set the record straight.

FINALLY WILLIE you dishonest ass I typed in Report of the Select Committee on Intelligence Postwar findings Iraq terrorism and got 17200 hits on GOOGLE. You can find reference to it EVERYWHERE. If you are going to lie you should do it better.

.

 

[Socrtease]

.

The FBI cross checked what they were told by Saddam and Tariq but in the MOUNTAIN of POST WAR intel you will continue to deny the report and insist that Iraq was the proper target for the war on Terror

 

[WRL]

The only way we will win the war on terror is to destroy the institution's that are instilling and enforcing this radicalism...

"Does [America] realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross to countries and cities?"
Saddam Hussein, September 29, 1994


"One chemical weapon fired in a moment of despair could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands." Al-Quds al-Arabi, October 12, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)


Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996
"[The U.S.] should send more coffins to Saudi Arabia, because no one can guess what the future has in store."
Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, June 27, 1996


U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000
"[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means..."
Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)


The Attacks of September 11
"The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world."
Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001

"The real perpetrators [of September 11] are within the collapsed buildings."
Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"[September 11 was] God's punishment."
Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"If the attacks of September 11 cost the lives of 3,000 civilians, how much will the size of losses in 50 states within 100 cities if it were attacked in the same way in which New York and Washington were? What would happen if hundreds of planes attacked American cities?"
Al-Rafidayn, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/iraq/sadquots.htm

These institutions have to go, these radical Islamic schools, these state run media's enforcing this upbringing. A new generation has to grow up away from the constant bombardment of this twisted version of Islam. Independent idea's need to be protected, these nations need to be built up to promote democracy, and like in Europe, and in Asia, two vastly different cultures, we can turn the bloodiest places into peaceful places. It's called democracy, power to the people, if you're truly anti war, look at the policies that have ended wars in war torn regions. It's never achieved by the strong turning a blind eye...
[SIZE=-1]All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing...

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Edmund Burke[/SIZE]

 

[Beefy]

The only way we will win the war on terror is to destroy the institution's that are instilling and enforcing this radicalism...

"Does [America] realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross to countries and cities?"
Saddam Hussein, September 29, 1994

Larry, do you think there is more or less momentum for people to become terrorists in Iraq from 1994 to today? Or maybe you mean we should kill them all? Your way of doing things is a self fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one. Go cause mayhem and destruction, and when they get pissed and start shooting at us, then you have the justification for going over there in the first place.

"One chemical weapon fired in a moment of despair could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands." Al-Quds al-Arabi, October 12, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)


Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996
"[The U.S.] should send more coffins to Saudi Arabia, because no one can guess what the future has in store."
Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, June 27, 1996

Boy did they have that right. We've already killed 100 times more Iraqis and thousands more Americans than they ever could have dreamed of. So in a way, you're right Larry! Way to show your patriotism, by approving of the very wars that are ruining what the founding fathers set out for us.

We were never designed to be the world police, and its no wonder that its destroying us inch by inch. We are a great country, until we decide to be the kings of the world. We're not, and the more we try to be, the more we fuck ourselves. Keep kidding yourself that the intentions of our foreign policy are what Bush has been telling us, but don't expect me too.

U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000
"[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means..."
Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)


The Attacks of September 11
"The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world."
Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001

"The real perpetrators [of September 11] are within the collapsed buildings."
Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"[September 11 was] God's punishment."
Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

"If the attacks of September 11 cost the lives of 3,000 civilians, how much will the size of losses in 50 states within 100 cities if it were attacked in the same way in which New York and Washington were? What would happen if hundreds of planes attacked American cities?"
Al-Rafidayn, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/iraq/sadquots.htm

Its a fucked up world over there. But we still had no reason to attack, conquer, occupy, and hang the leader of Iraq. He never posed any threat whatsoever, and he was powerless to do a damned thing. If you want to use an entire history of a foreign leader's rhetoric to justify wars, then there's certainly more opportune places to war with.

It bugs the shit out of me Larry, that you place your PARTY above ALL ELSE. It's just fucking wrong.

These institutions have to go, these radical Islamic schools, these state run media's enforcing this upbringing. A new generation has to grow up away from the constant bombardment of this twisted version of Islam. Independent idea's need to be protected, these nations need to be built up to promote democracy, and like in Europe, and in Asia, two vastly different cultures, we can turn the bloodiest places into peaceful places. It's called democracy, power to the people, if you're truly anti war, look at the policies that have ended wars in war torn regions. It's never achieved by the strong turning a blind eye...

Gear up Larry. We've got the next 5 World Wars on our hands.

We'll eventually achieve peace, we just have to kill everyone else.
[SIZE=-1]All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing...

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Edmund Burke[/SIZE]

You think our government is "good men"? God Bless you Larry.

 

[WRL]

Larry, do you think there is more or less momentum for people to become terrorists in Iraq from 1994 to today? Or maybe you mean we should kill them all? Your way of doing things is a self fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one. Go cause mayhem and destruction, and when they get pissed and start shooting at us, then you have the justification for going over there in the first place.


Come on now, you're capable of thinking above this. Yes I'm advocating we kill all the towlheads we can, that'll solve our terrorism problem. Give me a break, the governments in the middle east are very culpable in the rise of this extremism, through schools, state run media's that dominate their tv's, and now in a great swath of the middle east, those institutions, the pillars of terrorism are being removed. Is it an overnight fix, no, is there one, no, will the extremists fight back, yes, but as you're seeing in Iraq, there strategy is flawed, the people are turning on them, and joining US Forces, will this fix things in the long run, yes, as it did in Europe and Asia, the free flow of idea's and democracy will tamper the extremism we face today, but it's no overnight fix.


Boy did they have that right. We've already killed 100 times more Iraqis and thousands more Americans than they ever could have dreamed of. So in a way, you're right Larry! Way to show your patriotism, by approving of the very wars that are ruining what the founding fathers set out for us.

What, I a few hours, they killed nearly as many as we've lost in a few years. And that's just one attack, I can list many more.

We were never designed to be the world police, and its no wonder that its destroying us inch by inch. We are a great country, until we decide to be the kings of the world. We're not, and the more we try to be, the more we fuck ourselves. Keep kidding yourself that the intentions of our foreign policy are what Bush has been telling us, but don't expect me too.

I agree, we are not the worlds police, that's the UN, a laughably inept, corrupt, and waste of good real estate, but when we give our word, especially when we give it threatening war to achieve peace as a last resort, and that doesn't even work, we should uphold our word. Saddam violated the cease fire agreement, and faced the repercussions.

Its a fucked up world over there. But we still had no reason to attack, conquer, occupy, and hang the leader of Iraq. He never posed any threat whatsoever, and he was powerless to do a damned thing. If you want to use an entire history of a foreign leader's rhetoric to justify wars, then there's certainly more opportune places to war with.

He was in violation of the ceasefire agreement that was more than he should have got, he's used WMD many, many times, he paid huge bonuses to the families of suicide bombers, he promoted Jihad, had invaded nearly all his neighbors.

It bugs the shit out of me Larry, that you place your PARTY above ALL ELSE. It's just fucking wrong.

I do not place any party above my own country and am very offended that you keep suggesting this, I wore the uniform for the entire country, not just Republicans. Yes I typically agree with Republicans, it doesn't make me a traitor.



Gear up Larry. We've got the next 5 World Wars on our hands.



You think our government is "good men"? God Bless you Larry.

.

 

[Beefy]

OK Larry, I apologize, I tend to get hot headed with regard to foreign policy.

But that said, I feel it is insincere to pursue a constant interventionist policy, one in which we are arming one side of a war, or even both sides of a war, a foreign policy where we are telling foreign governments what it is they can or cannot do, one where we are using borrowed money to buy off regimes at best, and using bombs to dethrown them at worst, it is insincere to entertain the notion that our foreign policy doesn't have a hand in the very strife that causes us grief ourselves.

Let me ask you this William. Has our foreign policy in the middle east since WWII been the cause of any problems? Any at all?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Leave them alone and they'll leave us alone.

 

[WRL]

OK Larry, I apologize, I tend to get hot headed with regard to foreign policy.

But that said, I feel it is insincere to pursue a constant interventionist policy, one in which we are arming one side of a war, or even both sides of a war, a foreign policy where we are telling foreign governments what it is they can or cannot do, one where we are using borrowed money to buy off regimes at best, and using bombs to dethrown them at worst, it is insincere to entertain the notion that our foreign policy doesn't have a hand in the very strife that causes us grief ourselves.

Let me ask you this William. Has our foreign policy in the middle east since WWII been the cause of any problems? Any at all?

No sweat, we all get worked up at times, politics and religion can do that to people, trust me there are things I would take back.

And once more, yes the extremists will fight back, and it's not a consistent interventionist policy, much of the strategy is devoted to reconstruction, promoting democracy, destroying the pilers of terrorism. Radical Islamists know a free society where the exchange of idea's is not dominated their extremism will succeed, and their agenda will falter.
I wish the UN would do something about this, but this is a laughable pipe dream, do to the 5 nation veto rule, you've got to get all the worlds cultures to agree on one thing just to get anything done, and that's nearly impossible, you can't get all the states of one country to agree, and they typically share a similar culture. Think of the barriers, trade, regional strategies, etc. etc.

I don't have the time to even start on your last question. That is a one deep conversation, and I'll soon have to go.

 

[WRL]

Leave them alone and they'll leave us alone.

 

[Beefy]

William, I'll address the other post later, but the above?

We left them alone, so they caused 9-11?

Because we left them alone??

 

[WRL]

Bin Laden attacked us because he perceived our requested presence in Saudi Arabia to prevent a Saddam invasion, who was amassing for one, as an insult to Islam's holiest sties, expescially the woman running around uncovered, not observing his strict interpretation of the Koran. He also perceived us as weak because the last Clinton ran at the sight of blood in Somalia, Bin Laden's first victory over the US. Watch Black Hawk down...

 

[Beefy]

Bin Laden attacked us because he perceived our requested presence in Saudi Arabia to prevent a Saddam invasion, who was amassing for one, as an insult to Islam's holiest sties, expescially the woman running around uncovered, not observing his strict interpretation of the Koran.

That doesn't sound like leaving them alone. That sounds like we were dicking around in their affairs.

 

[WRL]

That doesn't sound like leaving them alone. That sounds like we were dicking around in their affairs.

Come on now, we've fought how many world wars recently, Saddam had invaded nearly everyone of his neighbors, and was trying to take control of some 60% of the worlds oil with his sweep into Saudi Arabia. It was in US national interests to prevent this, and we didn't even ask, we were asked by the Saudi's to come. I don't see that as an invasion, or us 'dicking' around in anyway but a good one. We prevented a genocidal dictator from a majority control of the worlds principle resource.

 

[WRL]

there's not a surge. WRL is guzzling kool aid.

The only thing McCain has is the mainstream media. They love him, and they are perfectly willing to shill for him, to try to create the impression he's "surging". I'm pretty sure Chris Mathews would give McCain a BJ. The Beltway crowd simply can't accept that rubes would support a creationist baptist preacher for prez. Ergo, the wise old men of the beltway media will blather on endlessly about every little thing McCain does, in order to try to resurect their hero.

lol