NATO ex- prepare for a “worst-case” scenario: war with Russia.

Cypress said:
A violent, criminal rogue state cannot be allowed to run amuck in our world.
Click to expand...

Would you care to see the lists of American foreign attacks, regime changes and atrocities again ? You seem to have forgotten them.

Believe me- nobody that attempts to paint the US/NATO as chivalrous is going to escape un-lampooned.



Haw, haw..............................................haw.
 
Walt said:
Does cowering from Putin's threats make him less likely to go nuclear? Let's say Putin announces that we either surrender Europe, or he will go nuclear. Having captured Europe with no losses, wouldn't he then demand North America, or he will go nuclear.

I believe standing up to him early makes him less likely to go nuclear. Less likely is not the same as not possible. We live in a dangerous world.
Click to expand...

That's far too simplistic. It's more likely that Putin would announce that if NATO goes further or doesn't stop assisting Ukraine he's going to be forced to use tactical nukes on that country to win. Escalation doesn't start with a demand for something the other side won't give up. You take one bite, not the whole cake.

That leaves NATO in a position where they stop assistance, or reduce it to avoid a nuclear war. Would European countries think that Ukraine is so important that they should risk nuclear war over it?
 
dukkha said:
you were making some sense until you went the Neville Chamberlain route

Ukraine can ask for the moon - it doesn't mean we need to kowtow to whatever they want
Do you get it yet?? "we are at war with Russia" -have you internalized this?

Post war whether Putin bombs cities or uses nukes wont really matter in terms of ostracizing Putin

The only thing holding him back now is China doesnt want the blowback of using nukes

Still Russia is issuing warnings over and over - i dont want to play chicken with Putin
Click to expand...

We are not kow towing to Ukraine. They have asked for main battle tanks, modern jet fighters, and a NATO-enforced no fly zone -- and we told them to take a hike.

Our latest aid included 155mm towed howitzers and M113 armored personnel careers. Those are 1960s vintage platforms.

I gives me a lot of pain to admit Putin's Russia is a criminal rogue state that needs to be cut off from civilization. A lot of people in Russia worked hard at creating democratic institutions and exposing corruption. Unfortunately, at this time, the power of oligarchy and wealth are really holding all the cards.
 
Cypress said:
You made it sound like it was a terrible thing that we waged war on imperial Japan. War is always tragic, but our victory over Japan was one of the greatest blows for human freedom and liberal democracy in world history.

If you are afraid of Putin's bluster, you should move to the back of the bus and take a seat. It is good you and Trump no longer have a voice in government, because cowardice doesn't help in standing up for democracy and holding steadfast against a notorious war criminal.
Click to expand...

No, but it wasn't a one-way street. The US in good part forced Japan into a corner and they responded by going to war. Push Putin too far--an I have zero faith in Biden or Harris to know what that line is--and he too could respond by going into a world war.

I'm not afraid of Putin's "bluster," but rather Biden's incompetence. Stupid like him could get us all killed.
 
Cypress said:
It's almost as if you do not want Ukraine to have any weapons to defend itself except small arms, and an outdated collection of Cold War-era Soviet armored vehicles.
Click to expand...


Senator Obama pushed bill that helped destroy more than 15,000 TONS of ammunition, 400,000 small arms and 1,000 anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine

https://www.congress.gov/116/meeting/house/110331/documents/HMKP-116-JU00-20191211-SD994.pdf






Team Obama refused to arm Ukraine at all

In 2014, after Russia annexed Crimea and began arming separatists in eastern Ukraine with tanks, armored vehicles and rocket launchers, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko came to Washington to plead for weapons to defend his country. In an impassioned address to a joint session of Congress — with Biden sitting directly behind him — Poroshenko said his country appreciated the nonlethal assistance he was getting, but declared “one cannot win a war with blankets.”

The Obama-Biden administration was unmoved. The Wall Street Journal reported at the time that “President Barack Obama stuck to his refusal to provide weapons or other lethal military gear to Ukraine.” Why?

Team Obama feared that lethal aid would provoke Moscow.

https://nypost.com/2019/10/09/sorry-joe-team-obama-refused-to-arm-ukraine-at-all/


It's almost as if Obama didn't want Ukraine to have any weapons to defend itself!
 
Last edited:
Cypress said:
We are not kow towing to Ukraine. They have asked for main battle tanks, modern jet fighters, and a NATO-enforced no fly zone -- and we told them to take a hike.

Our latest aid included 155mm towed howitzers and M113 armored personnel careers. Those are 1960s vintage platforms.

I gives me a lot of pain to admit Putin's Russia is a criminal rogue state that needs to be cut off from civilization. A lot of people in Russia worked hard at creating democratic institutions and exposing corruption. Unfortunately, at this time, the power of oligarchy and wealth are really holding all the cards.
Click to expand...
no we are sending 155mm M777 howitzers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer
A more than 60-tonne, armored, self propelled and self loading 155mm howitzer, the gun has integrated GPS, weather and other systems as well as a maximum range in excess of 60 km with rocket assisted shells
Ukraine
In April 2022, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine in the Russo-Ukraine War, the United States provided 90, Canada provided 4 and Australia provided 6 of their 37 M777 howitzers with ammunition to the Ukrainian armed forces, to repel Russia
 
​​1. Over 1,400 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles
Over 5,500 Javelin anti-tank missiles
Over 14,000 other anti-armor systems
Over 700 Switchblade drones
Phoenix Ghost tactical drones
90 155mm Howitzers and 183,000 155mm artillery rounds
72 Tactical Vehicles to tow 155mm Howitzers
16 Mi-17 helicopters
Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles
200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers
7,000 small arms
50 million rounds of ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems
Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels
M18A1 Claymore anti-personnel munitions
C-4 explosives and demolition equipment for obstacle clearing
https://www.businessinsider.com/all-the-weapons-us-approved-to-send-ukraine-fight-russia-2022-4
 
dukkha said:
​​1. Over 1,400 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles
Over 5,500 Javelin anti-tank missiles
Over 14,000 other anti-armor systems
Over 700 Switchblade drones
Phoenix Ghost tactical drones
90 155mm Howitzers and 183,000 155mm artillery rounds
72 Tactical Vehicles to tow 155mm Howitzers
16 Mi-17 helicopters
Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles
200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers
7,000 small arms
50 million rounds of ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems
Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels
M18A1 Claymore anti-personnel munitions
C-4 explosives and demolition equipment for obstacle clearing
https://www.businessinsider.com/all-the-weapons-us-approved-to-send-ukraine-fight-russia-2022-4
Click to expand...

I hope that none of it actually gets into the country at all, let alone the front lines- or this is going to drag on to the last Ukrainian.
 
dukkha said:
no we are sending 155mm M777 howitzers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer
A more than 60-tonne, armored, self propelled and self loading 155mm howitzer, the gun has integrated GPS, weather and other systems as well as a maximum range in excess of 60 km with rocket assisted shells
Ukraine
In April 2022, during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine in the Russo-Ukraine War, the United States provided 90, Canada provided 4 and Australia provided 6 of their 37 M777 howitzers with ammunition to the Ukrainian armed forces, to repel Russia
Click to expand...
Look chap, a howitzer is not a game changer.

You claimed we kow towed to Ukraine giving them anything they wanted. That is not even remotely true. They have asked for a lot of military support we have denied them: no fly zones, main battle tanks, advanced fighter aircraft.

You literally sound like you want Ukraine to be under equiped and out gunned by Russia. Why do you want that? What is your intent in wanting to see Ukraine massively outgunned?


The sovereign nation of Ukraine has every right to acquire the weapons they need to defend themselves from bloodthirsty invaders.
 
dukkha said:
​​1. Over 1,400 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles
Over 5,500 Javelin anti-tank missiles
Over 14,000 other anti-armor systems
Over 700 Switchblade drones
Phoenix Ghost tactical drones
90 155mm Howitzers and 183,000 155mm artillery rounds
72 Tactical Vehicles to tow 155mm Howitzers
16 Mi-17 helicopters
Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles
200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers
7,000 small arms
50 million rounds of ammunition
Laser-guided rocket systems
Puma Unmanned Aerial Systems
Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels
M18A1 Claymore anti-personnel munitions
C-4 explosives and demolition equipment for obstacle clearing
https://www.businessinsider.com/all-the-weapons-us-approved-to-send-ukraine-fight-russia-2022-4
Click to expand...
Ukraine has a right to defend itself.

Look chap, a howitzer is not a game changer.
M113 is a 1960s vintage transport.
Claymore mines have been around for ever, and vintage Soviet helicopters and small arms ammunition is not going to fundamentally stop a Russian onslaught.

You literally sound like you want Ukraine to be under equiped and out gunned by Russia.

Why do you want that?

What is your intent in wanting to see Ukraine massively outgunned?


You claimed we kow towed to Ukraine giving them anything they wanted. That is not even remotely true. They have asked for a lot of military support we have denied them: no fly zones, main battle tanks, advanced fighter aircraft.


The sovereign nation of Ukraine has every right to acquire the weapons they need to defend themselves from bloodthirsty invaders.
 
dukkha said:
Putin threatens "lightning-fast strikes" on those who want to intervene in the war
https://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-threatens-lightning-fast-strikes-135038698.html
Russian President Vladimir Putin has responded to western "threats" with a threat of his own, stating that the Russian army is prepared to deliver lightning-fast strikes with strategic weapons. Source: Vladimir Putin, speaking to Russian parliamentarians in St. Petersburg Quote from Putin: "If someone decides to intervene in current events [in Ukraine] from the outside and creates unacceptable strategic threats for Russia, then [they] must know that our response, our retaliatory strikes, will be lightning-fast, quick. We have all the tools for this - such that no one else can boast of right now. And we won't brag - we'll use them if needed! And everyone should know about it! All decisions in this regard have already been made."
Click to expand...

I suspect his lightning fast strikes will be about as lightning fast as his lightning fast strike on Kyiv.
 
Cypress said:
Look chap, a howitzer is not a game changer.
Click to expand...
yes they are . they are highly mobile and capable of shelling 18 miles
M113A1 is still being used in service by USA and allies
You claimed we kow towed to Ukraine giving them anything they wanted. That is not even remotely true. They have asked for a lot of military support we have denied them: no fly zones, main battle tanks, advanced fighter aircraft.
Click to expand...
they got everything else under the sun. Biden want another shitload sent
You literally sound like you want Ukraine to be under equiped and out gunned by Russia. Why do you want that? What is your intent in wanting to see Ukraine massively outgunned?
Click to expand...
me?? I dont want to be at war with Russia. I care little about the battles other then that
Ukraine and Russia have to find a way to coexist - we are making them impossible to do so and dragging us in to that shithole war
The sovereign nation of Ukraine has every right to acquire the weapons they need to defend themselves from bloodthirsty invaders.
Click to expand...
dont mean we have to give them weapons
especially not t hat advanced list and quantities to war wih Russia on our behalf
 
dukkha said:
yes they are . they are highly mobile and capable of shelling 18 miles
M113A1 is still being used in service by USA and allies
they got everything else under the sun. Biden want another shitload sent
me?? I dont want to be at war with Russia. I care little about the battles other then that
Ukraine and Russia have to find a way to coexist - we are making them impossible to do so and dragging us in to that shithole war
dont mean we have to give them weapons
especially not t hat advanced list and quantities to war wih Russia on our behalf
Click to expand...

I'll chalk you up as literally desiring to to see Ukraine outgunned and defeated

The Kremlin heavily armed North Vietnam, the Viet Cong, the North Koreans, and the Chinese when we were at war in East Asia. So the Kremlin really has no grounds to complain if we choose to arm Ukraine.
 
dukkha said:
please take your jingoistic fantasies to another thread.

This is about being sucked into war with Russia step by step. escalation by escalation
and we aren't even talking about it with few exceptions like Glen Greenwald
Click to expand...

its what can happen when you ignore Georgia, ignore Crimea and tell Putin its okay if there is only a mild incursion into Ukraine.......
 
dukkha said:
Giving Ukraine what amounts to a blank check also discourages peace.
Click to expand...

giving Putin blank check after blank check is also bad for peace.......this whole thing illustrates the basic difference between libertarians and conservatives........we were able to unite on domestic issues under Trump, but I realized I could never vote for Ron Paul when he said the US should never have joined the war against Hitler........I cannot agree with isolationism.......
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top