Obama Begins VP Search....

[Cancel7]

The reason I've gone from posting threads about her strengths to now absolutely hating her, as you know, has nothing to do with her gender. Frankly, I hate her in spite of her gender.

This wasn't the first time she'd made that exact remark and it wasn't the first time she was criticized for it. I'm willing to bet Hillary is as smart as I am and far more knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Democratic Party .. so she knows this has never been an effective or even honest defense, or historical interpretation. She said this with intent.

Wordsmithing is what the Clintons do, and they do it better than most. It has been the source of their political power. In truth, republicans have been telling the left this for years. .. Yeah, I know, but they were right. The one great pleasure the right can enjoy today is watching the Democratic Party discover the Clintons.

Was the intent of the RFK remard meant as a clarion call to would-be assassins? Who knows, .. but what is known is the Clintons are smart enough to know it might be interpreted as one. They are smart enough to know that any mention of assassination, especially in a historically distorted and ineffective excuse, would enrage the progressives within the party .. they know because they'd already been told when she made it the first time.

At the bottom of this democrats had better seriously ask themselves how did the Clintons go from half a million dollars to over a hundred million so quickly? .. and that hundred million is all we've been told about.

Democrats are waking up to what the Clintons represent, and it ain't pretty.

Well, I think that it’s possible she was doing that, and possible she wasn’t doing that. I really don’t think anyone knows for certain one way or the other. But this insistence on the demonization of Hillary Clinton all throughout the internet, is rubbing off onto her supporters. The hate you and others feel for her, is being directed at women who support her.

I think that this is not only offensive, but it’s a serious mistake. You think that this election is going to be a blowout. I on the other hand agree with Rachel Maddow; it’s going to be close and John McCain might very well be the front-runnner, not the underdog he is perceived to be.

I see us driving off of a cliff here.

And I would ask you to also keep in mind that regardless of how you would have it, the facts are the facts, and this is the fact: How Hillary Clinton is treated and how her race ends will affect whether or not we have a woman President in my lifetime. And I am not going to go along with this demonization of Hillary Clinton, and I do see sexism in it. Yes I get angry at her. But she’s not the wicked witch of the west. We don’t have to read every possible evil intent in every little action she takes and every little word she speaks.

That’s how I see it bac, and believe me I thought 50 times before I got onto this thread between you and Care, both of whom I have the upmost respect for and fondness of. Care is a kick-ass feminist, and still, Hillary was not her first choice. But she is breaking under the abuse, and she won’t be the only woman who does.

I am younger than Care and therefore I am not of the second-wave feminism mold, but I am far too old to believe as many of these young girls do that I live in some post-feminist reality wherein voting for the man is the real feminist act. What a crock of horseshit!

And I have myself cried when listening to black people speak about what it would be like, for them, and their children, to have a black President, and I will feel that in my heart, but by God I have seen NO sign of any acknowledgement on the part of male Obama supporters of what it would have meant to women…of what it would have meant to women.

No, then that is “identity politics”. Well Bull shit again.

200 years of white men voting for white men, that is identity politics. When rich ceos vote for other rich ceo’s that is identity politics. When evangical voters hear bush’s dog whistling bible verses that went over most other heads, and go “ohhh and ahhhh” and vote for him because of it, that is identity politics. When people vote based on who they would rather have a beer with, that is identity politics. As if, Americans have always been looking to vote for the other, or the different. All politics are identity politics.

And in a world where a woman is raped every 6 seconds and beaten every 4 seconds, it would have meant something, and though I concluded I could not in good conscious vote for Hillary Clinton, I will be damned if I will say she is the very embodiment of the mythification of the evil, manipulative woman, Cruella Deville come to life, and denounce her. That way lies political oblivion for women. No, no, a thousand times NO.

 

[Chapdog]

Michele Obama is 2x the woman Hillary is. Your sliver lining.

 

[blackascoal]

that's fine, don't "waste your time" with me.....I'm just a solid Democratic voter that you can throw out with the Bath Water.....hugs and kisses, and can you say...

President McCain?

I wonder if that was not your goal all along?

Care

"President McCain"

Now you've traveled to the ridiculous.

What makes you believe that Hillary could win anything nationally without the support of those who support Obama?

What makes you believe her constituency, MOST of whom, as in the vast majority, who WILL be voting for Obama, is more important than another constituency within the party?

Why have you not addressed why so many former Clintonites, some of them women, no longer support them?

Is NARAL a sexist organization?

Are black women and all the other women who support Obama sexist as well?

In all seriousness, if you can't vote for Obama .. that's up to you .. I don't really care. Nor do I believe that either Obama or those who support him should bend over and kiss Clinton ass or those who support them.

This isn't about personality or singularly about Obama or Clinton. That's for ignorant people to wallow about. This is about what they politically and ideologically represent .. which is FAR beyond becoming the first woman or African-American president

 

[evince]

Who are these people that out of spite would vote for McCain instead of Obama?

Who are these people who would actually vote against their own wishes for a Guy who represents all that is wrong with our government just to spite the guy who won their own parties nomination fair and square?

How can they be surprized he would not pick someone who said on national TV that one of her options for gettin the presidency is the Death of Obama?

 

[Onceler]

People who vote to "send a message" don't understand the stakes. Hillary supporters have a problem with Obama supporters; they don't really have much ground to be upset with the candidate himself, unless "sweetie" really bothered them.

I understand what a Hillary Presidency would mean for women, but I also understand what a McCain Presidency would mean for women. The idea that Hillary supporters would vote for him just to spite Obama supporters is plain crazy; really, they don't comprehend the implications if they cast their vote for such a shallow reason.
I know many of them will, anyway. At the very least, they're willing to sacrifice Roe to send that message, and that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

This is the problem when a campaign comes to be seen in terms of gender or race. Much of what I have heard from Hillary's supporters has to do with the IDEA of a woman, and not the woman herself. I don't see Hillary or her campaign in terms of gender at all. The campaign she has run is deplorable for anyone, regardless of gender or race. Obama supporters have much more cause to be upset with Hillary as a candidate. I just can't see what Obama himself has done to give similar cause to Hillary supporters.

 

[Cancel7]

Who are these people that out of spite would vote for McCain instead of Obama?

Who are these people who would actually vote against their own wishes for a Guy who represents all that is wrong with our government just to spite the guy who won their own parties nomination fair and square?

How can they be surprized he would not pick someone who said on national TV that one of her options for gettin the presidency is the Death of Obama?

Firstly, Hillary did not say that Desh. That is how you and many others interpreted what she said. That’s not a quote you have there.

Secondly, who are they? Well, let’s be clear right off that Care never made that statement, she simply pointed out that some women were saying they would vote for McCain. So I don’t know any of them personally, but this is who I think that they are. I think that they are women who feel they have been treated very badly in this campaign and are now being told screw you we don’ t need you and your whining. So what they are going to do is put McCain in the white house and take some setbacks in the short run, in order to gain the political power they are now being told they don’t have, in the long run.

I disagree with it, but that’s who I think they might be. I really couldn’t say for sure, because as I said, I don’t know any of them. Do you?

Let’s tell them they’re stupid and whiny, and should shut the fuck up some more. That should help!

 

[blackascoal]

Well, I think that it’s possible she was doing that, and possible she wasn’t doing that. I really don’t think anyone knows for certain one way or the other. But this insistence on the demonization of Hillary Clinton all throughout the internet, is rubbing off onto her supporters. The hate you and others feel for her, is being directed at women who support her.

I think that this is not only offensive, but it’s a serious mistake. You think that this election is going to be a blowout. I on the other hand agree with Rachel Maddow; it’s going to be close and John McCain might very well be the front-runnner, not the underdog he is perceived to be.

I see us driving off of a cliff here.

And I would ask you to also keep in mind that regardless of how you would have it, the facts are the facts, and this is the fact: How Hillary Clinton is treated and how her race ends will affect whether or not we have a woman President in my lifetime. And I am not going to go along with this demonization of Hillary Clinton, and I do see sexism in it. Yes I get angry at her. But she’s not the wicked witch of the west. We don’t have to read every possible evil intent in every little action she takes and every little word she speaks.

That’s how I see it bac, and believe me I thought 50 times before I got onto this thread between you and Care, both of whom I have the upmost respect for and fondness of. Care is a kick-ass feminist, and still, Hillary was not her first choice. But she is breaking under the abuse, and she won’t be the only woman who does.

I am younger than Care and therefore I am not of the second-wave feminism mold, but I am far too old to believe as many of these young girls do that I live in some post-feminist reality wherein voting for the man is the real feminist act. What a crock of horseshit!

And I have myself cried when listening to black people speak about what it would be like, for them, and their children, to have a black President, and I will feel that in my heart, but by God I have seen NO sign of any acknowledgement on the part of male Obama supporters of what it would have meant to women…of what it would have meant to women.

No, then that is “identity politics”. Well Bull shit again.

200 years of white men voting for white men, that is identity politics. When rich ceos vote for other rich ceo’s that is identity politics. When evangical voters hear bush’s dog whistling bible verses that went over most other heads, and go “ohhh and ahhhh” and vote for him because of it, that is identity politics. When people vote based on who they would rather have a beer with, that is identity politics. As if, Americans have always been looking to vote for the other, or the different. All politics are identity politics.

And in a world where a woman is raped every 6 seconds and beaten every 4 seconds, it would have meant something, and though I concluded I could not in good conscious vote for Hillary Clinton, I will be damned if I will say she is the very embodiment of the mythification of the evil, manipulative woman, Cruella Deville come to life, and denounce her. That way lies political oblivion for women. No, no, a thousand times NO.

First, let's be very clear. It's not "women", it's white women we're talking about .. and only some white women at that. Are black women not to be included in "woman." Do they have a voice in what represents "woman"?

Isn't Hillary winning as many white male votes as Obama? .. sometimes more?

At what point can Hillary be judged as a candidate, rejected as a candidate, and villified as anyother candidate in politics?

I post on the internet and I am indeed included among those who now even hate looking at her. But it has absolutely NOTHING to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her dispicable brand of politics. Even though I've never been a fan, I now hate Bill Clinton and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with him being a man.

What I see evolving in a divide that perhaps was inevitable. That divide does not have women on one side and no women on the other .. in fact, "woman" isn't even part of the equation. This is a battle between the progressive and conservatives wings of the Democratic Party and far too many women .. let's be clear .. white women, are being used by the Clintons to wage a false battle.

The same doors opened for women when they were opened for African-Americans .. in fact, in the case of affirmative action, they opened wider for women, white women, than blacks. Obama's rise makes it easier for women, not harder .. and his place in history is due in large part to who he is, not what race he is.

There are plenty of women in America well-qualified to be president .. and frankly, women whose position in that list is not due to who they married.

After Obama's terms, they will be a plethora of women positioned to become president .. who would bet that a woman won't become president then?

But I do not believe Hillary will be one of them, nor should she be.

This isn't about women and it isn't about race, it's about the direction of this country.

 

[Cancel7]

People who vote to "send a message" don't understand the stakes. Hillary supporters have a problem with Obama supporters; they don't really have much ground to be upset with the candidate himself, unless "sweetie" really bothered them.

I understand what a Hillary Presidency would mean for women, but I also understand what a McCain Presidency would mean for women. The idea that Hillary supporters would vote for him just to spite Obama supporters is plain crazy; really, they don't comprehend the implications if they cast their vote for such a shallow reason.
I know many of them will, anyway. At the very least, they're willing to sacrifice Roe to send that message, and that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

This is the problem when a campaign comes to be seen in terms of gender or race. Much of what I have heard from Hillary's supporters has to do with the IDEA of a woman, and not the woman herself. I don't see Hillary or her campaign in terms of gender at all. The campaign she has run is deplorable for anyone, regardless of gender or race. Obama supporters have much more cause to be upset with Hillary as a candidate. I just can't see what Obama himself has done to give similar cause to Hillary supporters.

You know, it’s thanks to the second wave feminists that we have Roe Onceler. And I have seen a lot of 20-something so called “post-feminists” writing on the internet who take Roe for granted and treat these women as if they were old hags whose time was up and who don’t understand the post-feminist world these 20 somethings live in, where voting for the man is the real feminist act.

And so maybe, just maybe, these women figure that these post-feminist 20 somethings should try living in a world where there is no Roe.

 

[blackascoal]

People who vote to "send a message" don't understand the stakes. Hillary supporters have a problem with Obama supporters; they don't really have much ground to be upset with the candidate himself, unless "sweetie" really bothered them.

I understand what a Hillary Presidency would mean for women, but I also understand what a McCain Presidency would mean for women. The idea that Hillary supporters would vote for him just to spite Obama supporters is plain crazy; really, they don't comprehend the implications if they cast their vote for such a shallow reason.
I know many of them will, anyway. At the very least, they're willing to sacrifice Roe to send that message, and that's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

This is the problem when a campaign comes to be seen in terms of gender or race. Much of what I have heard from Hillary's supporters has to do with the IDEA of a woman, and not the woman herself. I don't see Hillary or her campaign in terms of gender at all. The campaign she has run is deplorable for anyone, regardless of gender or race. Obama supporters have much more cause to be upset with Hillary as a candidate. I just can't see what Obama himself has done to give similar cause to Hillary supporters.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Cancel7]

First, let's be very clear. It's not "women", it's white women we're talking about .. and only some white women at that. Are black women not to be included in "woman." Do they have a voice in what represents "woman"?

Isn't Hillary winning as many white male votes as Obama? .. sometimes more?

At what point can Hillary be judged as a candidate, rejected as a candidate, and villified as anyother candidate in politics?

I post on the internet and I am indeed included among those who now even hate looking at her. But it has absolutely NOTHING to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her dispicable brand of politics. Even though I've never been a fan, I now hate Bill Clinton and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with him being a man.

What I see evolving in a divide that perhaps was inevitable. That divide does not have women on one side and no women on the other .. in fact, "woman" isn't even part of the equation. This is a battle between the progressive and conservatives wings of the Democratic Party and far too many women .. let's be clear .. white women, are being used by the Clintons to wage a false battle.

The same doors opened for women when they were opened for African-Americans .. in fact, in the case of affirmative action, they opened wider for women, white women, than blacks. Obama's rise makes it easier for women, not harder .. and his place in history is due in large part to who he is, not what race he is.

There are plenty of women in America well-qualified to be president .. and frankly, women whose position in that list is not due to who they married.

After Obama's terms, they will be a plethora of women positioned to become president .. who would bet that a woman won't become president then?

But I do not believe Hillary will be one of them, nor should she be.

This isn't about women and it isn't about race, it's about the direction of this country.

How can you even try and pretend that a contest that would end with either the first black president or the first woman president is not about race or gender? Are you pretending that Obama is garnering 98 percent of the black vote has nothing to do with him being black? Of course it does. But that’s ok. It’s different when some women vote for Hillary because she’s a woman. Why is it different? I don’t know.

Let me tell you something bac, I have black women friends, and no there is no rift there. We’re all women, and they hear this sexist shit, and they acknowledge it, and they don’t like it. There are Republican women who don’t like it.

You are, in my opinion here, attempting to isolate white women. Why?

 

[evince]

Darla she has metioned Bobby more than once. she has talked about Bobby as a reason that this race is not over. She was tired and in an interview stated the implied reason she mentions Bobby to blatently. It was why she had been invoking his name for a couple of months now. It was just too obvious.

Everyone knows one of their first thoughts when they thought of Obama as a viable canidate was "I wonder if someone will try to assasinate him?".

It is the 800lb Gorilla in the room in the candicy of any Black person who runs.

We can pretend this is not true but we all know it is.

Even a woman candidate does not invoke this type of a thought anywhere as blatently as a black candidate.

Its why it was so BAD of her to make that slip.

 

[Chapdog]

divide and conquer

 

[Cancel7]

I absolutely agree.

So in the opinion of you and Onceler, there are NO female Hillary supporters who are supporting her because they really believe she is the better candidate? Well, that’s not condescending.
You know what, let me go get some work done. I’ll come back later to see what else you and Onceler have decided women want, and women think, and how black women feel compared to how white women feel.

Who would know better than the two men who are so omniscient that anyone who believes anyone other than their choice for President, might be a better choice, is either a complete idiot, or a calculating woman who is only voting for the woman candidate because she’s a woman! LOL. I have to laugh because I like you both, and if I don’t laugh I will scream, but I will tell you this, I am going to go home and give my bf a very wild night tonight, because by God, he is a rare man. A rare man. I really lucked out. So he will be thanking you guys tomorrow! LOL

 

[Onceler]

"So in the opinion of you and Onceler, there are NO female Hillary supporters who are supporting her because they really believe she is the better candidate?"

Did I say that?

Where did I say that?

I have absolutely no clue how you extrapolated anything that you just wrote from what I posted.

 

[evince]

So in the opinion of you and Onceler, there are NO female Hillary supporters who are supporting her because they really believe she is the better candidate? Well, that’s not condescending.
You know what, let me go get some work done. I’ll come back later to see what else you and Onceler have decided women want, and women think, and how black women feel compared to how white women feel.

Who would know better than the two men who are so omniscient that anyone who believes anyone other than their choice for President, might be a better choice, is either a complete idiot, or a calculating woman who is only voting for the woman candidate because she’s a woman! LOL. I have to laugh because I like you both, and if I don’t laugh I will scream, but I will tell you this, I am going to go home and give my bf a very wild night tonight, because by God, he is a rare man. A rare man. I really lucked out. So he will be thanking you guys tomorrow! LOL

Darla let me tell you of my experience with the Clinton ladies at my caucus.

They were uninformed and cheered like little prom queen cheer leaders for her.

I would say something like Hillary has taken more lobbying money than even some of the republicans running and they would just shake their signs and Chant "Hillary , Hillary" Then the little old lady (who had TOLD ME she was trained by the Hillary camp) came over to me and tried to say I wasnt allowed to say that because I was the caucus chairperson. I looked at her and told her I was caucusing just like her and had the right to discuss anything. When we were calculating the numbers she came over and tried to get us ot use a sheet of math calculations she brought. I asked her where she got the sheet and she said the Hillary campaign and I told her "we can not use that sheet we are using the democratic party sheet". Her little campaign crew outnumbered everyone at the caucus and all htey did was cheer and try to put up signs which they should have known was against the rules if they had been trained.

It really solidified my opinon of her campaign. I have yet to talk to a Hllary supporter who can give me any real reasons it should be Hillary over Obama.

 

[blackascoal]

How can you even try and pretend that a contest that would end with either the first black president or the first woman president is not about race or gender? Are you pretending that Obama is garnering 98 percent of the black vote has nothing to do with him being black? Of course it does. But that’s ok. It’s different when some women vote for Hillary because she’s a woman. Why is it different? I don’t know.

Let me tell you something bac, I have black women friends, and no there is no rift there. We’re all women, and they hear this sexist shit, and they acknowledge it, and they don’t like it. There are Republican women who don’t like it.

You are, in my opinion here, attempting to isolate white women. Why?

I'm attempting to shed the light on a false premise .. the premise that "women" are upset about Hillary Clinton's treatment and that sexism is at the core of how she is percieved.

Obama's race and Clinton's gender are at the surface of this race but that does not, nor should it, define what this election is about.

If Obama was Harold Ford he would not be getting 90% of the black vote, and in fact, when this campaign started Hillary Clinton was getting the majority of black votes over Obama.

I have no problems with women voting for Hillary, but they shouldn't claim her being a woman is more important than the furure of this nation.

In spite of your black female friends, if you think black women aren't as upset about Hillary's tactics as everybody else is, or you think there is no divide emerging, then you'd be sadly mistaken.

I hear it everyday in black media. Here's an example ...
http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/sohillary-clintons-stopped-hiding-her-racism/

My point is that we should clear away the smoke and mirrors and understand this ain't about women and race .. it's far deeper than that. It's about direction, and FINALLY, not only democrats, but a great many Americans recognize the failures that both McCain and Hillary represent.

I'd lik to hear arguments about direction, issues, and politics, not race and gender. That's bullshit and it should be dispelled.

 

[Cancel7]

"So in the opinion of you and Onceler, there are NO female Hillary supporters who are supporting her because they really believe she is the better candidate?"

Did I say that?

Where did I say that?

I have absolutely no clue how you extrapolated anything that you just wrote from what I posted.

"Much of what I have heard from Hillary's supporters has to do with the IDEA of a woman, and not the woman herself."

I’d call that a strong implication. Bac bolded it and said “I agree”.
That’s where I got it from.

 

[Topspin]

ah bac besides Obama being black, what has he done that has you drooling over his presidency?

 

[Cancel7]

I'm attempting to shed the light on a false premise .. the premise that "women" are upset about Hillary Clinton's treatment and that sexism is at the core of how she is percieved.

Obama's race and Clinton's gender are at the surface of this race but that does not, nor should it, define what this election is about.

If Obama was Harold Ford he would not be getting 90% of the black vote, and in fact, when this campaign started Hillary Clinton was getting the majority of black votes over Obama.

I have no problems with women voting for Hillary, but they shouldn't claim her being a woman is more important than the furure of this nation.

In spite of your black female friends, if you think black women aren't as upset about Hillary's tactics as everybody else is, or you think there is no divide emerging, then you'd be sadly mistaken.

I hear it everyday in black media. Here's an example ...
http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/sohillary-clintons-stopped-hiding-her-racism/

My point is that we should clear away the smoke and mirrors and understand this ain't about women and race .. it's far deeper than that. It's about direction, and FINALLY, not only democrats, but a great many Americans recognize the failures that both McCain and Hillary represent.

I'd lik to hear arguments about direction, issues, and politics, not race and gender. That's bullshit and it should be dispelled.

Well, my black women friends, are like most of my friends, in the peace movement, and they chose Obama because of the war issue. So I can only speak to what they say about this. And they see plenty of sexism in this race, and in the peace movement even. I don’t claim to walk in ordinary circles. I don’t claim to be part of the mainstream. And I don’t claim to speak for black women, white women, Hillary supporters or Obama supporters. I can speak, with some knowledge, of women in the peace movement. And still then, I am not their spokeswoman. We can all speak for ourselves.

Frankly, I find Hillary’s domestic policies to be more to my liking. If it weren’t for the war votes…the very idea that many, many women couldn’t prefer Hillary on issues alone, is absurd.

 

[Onceler]

"Much of what I have heard from Hillary's supporters has to do with the IDEA of a woman, and not the woman herself."

I’d call that a strong implication. Bac bolded it and said “I agree”.
That’s where I got it from.

That's ridiculous. It doesn't even qualify as a stretch; What I said & what you "interpreted" that I said are 2 different things entirely.

As is this:

"Who would know better than the two men who are so omniscient that anyone who believes anyone other than their choice for President, might be a better choice, is either a complete idiot, or a calculating woman who is only voting for the woman candidate because she’s a woman!"

There is nothing that I said that supports this conclusion. You have certainly made arguments here that at least SOME of Hillary's supporters vote for her because of gender identity, and seeing Obama as the candidate who took the more qualified person's job because he's a man. That's no different from saying that some Hillary supporters see the idea of the woman, and not the woman herself.

I really don't like that; your characterizations of what I wrote are reactionary & completely inaccurate. It's not even how I feel about it, and I certainly never said anything that would lead anyone to believe that I felt a certain way about ALL Hillary supporters.