October 7, - cause and effect

IBDaMann said:
Yes, but all this means is that they are pretty much guaranteed to HATE Israelis, not necessarily to become terrorists ... or can we assume that you are a terrorist because there are some people in the world that you HATE?


You don't get to speak for anyone but yourself. I know several Philistines and none of them are terrorists. Yes, they HATE Israelis but they aren't looking to join the Al Qassam brigades.


Israel has many more options than that, some of which involve ceasing and desisting all hostilities, begining to adhere to the Geneva Conventions, and making reparations for everything they have destroyed.
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Your words do not contain a specific proposal on how to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
 
Alik Bahshi said:
Sorry, but I didn’t understand anything about what exactly you proposed to end the conflict between Jews and Arabs.
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Sybil, like you, is a Jew-hater. He blames Israel for the war and would end the war by having them withdraw, stop killing Hamas terrorists and pay reparations for their counter-attack on Gaza.

The problem for you is that the only thing he hates more than Jews are Muslims. Happy now, Ali Baba?
 
Alik Bahshi said:
Sorry, but I didn’t understand anything about what exactly you proposed to end the conflict between Jews and Arabs.
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[sigh] Israel ceasing and desisting all hostilities, adhering to the Geneva Conventions, and making reparations for everything they have destroyed.
 
Walt said:
One side cannot halt all hostilities. It just does not make sense.
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There is only one side in this genocide. Israel is eradicating Arabs who never attacked them, in egregious violation of the Geneva Conventions, to effect the second Nakba. Israel could, and should, very well cease and desist.
 
IBDaMann said:
There is only one side in this genocide. Israel is eradicating Arabs who never attacked them, in egregious violation of the Geneva Conventions, to effect the second Nakba. Israel could, and should, very well cease and desist.
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Wow, you do not consider Hamas intentionally targeting civilians for extermination to the exclusion of any military objective to be genocide? That is a unique perspective.

Israel is eradicating the Arabs? Over 99% of Arabs are not in Gaza, and in fact almost 90% of Palestinians are not in Gaza. If they are attempting genocide, they are doing the worst job of it ever. The Geneva Convention does not touch on genocide, so you really do not have a point there.

We are going to have to make up a point for you.

Israel could reasonably be accused of being careless with noncombatants in Gaza. That would be a warcrime, if true. No sane person denies Israel's right to attack Gaza, because Gaza attacked them first. No sane person denies Israel's right to cutoff some supplies to Gaza, to cutoff supplies to those that attacked them. No sane person denies Israel's right to target things that would normally be illegal to target, if Hamas is illegally using them as shields.

What is in question is whether Israel has put enough effort into avoiding civilian casualties, and being sure that civilians are getting supplies. That is a subjective question, but is a real question.
 
Walt said:
Wow, you do not consider Hamas intentionally targeting civilians for extermination to the exclusion of any military objective to be genocide? That is a unique perspective.
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Not at all. Forgive me for saying this, but your position is one of ignorance.

1. Iran's attack on Israel on Oct.7th was terrible. The attackers should be brought to justice, whatever that justice should be.
2. Iran attacked Israel through the Al Qassam brigades. No one gets to blame anyone but the attackers for the attack on Israel. "Hamas" at large did not attack Israel and certainly not "the Palestinians."
3. Israel lied to the world when they said they were going to war seeking justice for the attack. The IDF did not invade Iran. Istead, the IDF invaded Gaza and started slaughtering Arabs who never attacked Israel, to include women and children who were supposed to be afforded "special protections" (more on that following).
4. Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. The moment the IDF entered Gaza, they assumed the responsibility to protect all civilian noncombatants. The IDF's rampant slaughter of civilian noncombatants amounts to many, many counts of heinous war crimes. Further, the Geneva Conventions required special protections be afforded to women and children under 14 years of age. The IDF's brazen murders of thousands of women and children with reckless abandon amount to many, many counts of heinous war crimes.
5. Collective punishment is expressly forbidden in both the Fourth Geneva Convention and the Convention against genocide. The moment the IDF began rampantly slaying Arabs in retribution for Iran's Oct 7th attack, they were engaging solely in collective punishment out of purely RACIST HATRED.
6. There are many thousands of dead Arab children who were alive and well at the beginning of October. They never attacked Israel and were supposed to have been afforded special protections. Their deaths are unforgiveable.

Walt said:
Israel is eradicating the Arabs?
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Your questions are exceedingly stupid. Yes, the IDF is perpetrating genocide against Arab Semites.

Walt said:
Over 99% of Arabs are not in Gaza,
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The IDF has to start somewhere and they have tested the waters of bombing Lebanon ... who also didn't attack them.

Walt said:
The Geneva Convention does not touch on genocide,
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The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide covers genocide quite thoroughly.

Walt said:
We are going to have to make up a point for you. Israel could reasonably be accused of being careless with noncombatants in Gaza.
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Poor wording. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel is guilty of many hundreds of counts of war crimes.

Walt said:
No sane person denies Israel's right to attack Gaza,
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No rational person denies the genocide per the Conventions mentioned above. Israel is a signatory and knows full well that they had an obligation to protect every single civilian noncombatant and to not destroy property and to ensure adequate food, clean water, shelter and medical facilities for the occupied population, not to blockage them into scarcity and then nonexistence. Ignorance of the conventions does not relieve Israel of their responsibilities.

The indisciminant killing, however, is particularly heinous. Air strikes into civilian population centers are prohibited always. Israel's RACIST HATRED overcame their desire to adhere to international law. Thousands and thousands of dead children, killed as collective punishment, just to minimize the number of Arabs in the next generation. Totally impardonable.

Walt said:
because Gaza attacked them first.
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Gaza is a piece of geography; it can't attack anyone.

Walt said:
No sane person denies Israel's right to cutoff some supplies to Gaza,
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This is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Yes, all sane people can denounce Israel's violations of the Geneva Conventions. Insane people can denounce them as well. Israel had the moral and legal obligation to protect every single civilian noncombatant and the property, and to ensure they all had adequate water, food and medical care. The IDF just began slaughtering them all while flattening Gaza.

Your argument is a non-starter.

Walt said:
No sane person denies Israel's right to target things that would normally be illegal to target, if Hamas is illegally using them as shields.
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Al Qassam isn't even in Gaza anymore. Being a member of the Hamas political party is not sufficient to warrant a death sentence. Only those who attacked Israel can be sought and punished. Collective punishment is illegal and immoral.

Walt said:
What is in question is whether Israel has put enough effort into avoiding civilian casualties
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Nope. There is no question that the IDF has not.

Walt said:
and being sure that civilians are getting supplies.
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All supplies and fuel were intentionally blockaded. Gazans were made to suffer and die out of collective punishment. It's not up for debate.
 
IBDaMann said:
[sigh] Israel ceasing and desisting all hostilities, adhering to the Geneva Conventions, and making reparations for everything they have destroyed.
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The point is not a cessation of hostilities, but the withdrawal of all Israeli troops from the territory of occupied Palestine and the return of refugees. There is no other way to stop the conflict.
 
Alik Bahshi said:
The point is not a cessation of hostilities, but the withdrawal of all Israeli troops from the territory of occupied Palestine and the return of refugees. There is no other way to stop the conflict.
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Taking hostages is a violation of international law. Why won't Iran and their proxies return the hostages?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Raped, tortured and murdered is the typical result of Hamas attacks on Jews.
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And one has to wonder how Hamas was equipped to care for the very young, and the very old who no doubt needed medication.

I believe any mention by Hamas of live hostages is just a bluff aimed at buying time.

I thought Israel flooded the tunnels with sea water? I can't believe that helped the situation
 
Althea said:
We know that the Oct. 7 attack did not entail military hostages, even though technically every Israeli is a soldier
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So we came to the conclusion that every Israeli, as well as every Palestinian, are potential soldiers, and if captured, exchange options are possible.
 
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