October 7, - cause and effect

[IBDaMann]

O.K. The Philistines and their country disappeared into history.

There might never have been a Philistine country, but there has always been a Philistine nation.

However, the name of this territory changed to Palestine

The name has only changed in English, from "Philistine" (as of the writing of KJV) to "Palestine" (I don't know when it changed). Nonetheless, in English, you can still use the middle-English version "Philistine." The name remains "Philistine" in both Arabic and Hebrew ("Philishtina").

Here lived the Semitic peoples of the Heths, Canaanites, Amovites, and Jews, who emerged as a people from Egypt, forming Israel.

Nope. Read the story of "David and Goliath." The Israelites (the outnumbered good guys with Yahweh on their side) were a nation while the Philistines (the evil bad guys who dared to menace the Israelites on Yahweh's watch) were their own nation. That rivalry is what has endured to this day.

The territory of Palestine passed into various empires.

There was no Philistine country, only a Philistine nation. Ergo, there was no "territory" in question that could have passed between anyone.

And since the time of the Arab Caliphate, Arabs have lived in Palestine.

Follow the Philistines. Where were they? Where was the Philistine nation?

After World War I, the entire Middle East was redrawn by the British and French. In 1947, by decision of the UN, two states were to be created on the historical territory of Palestine

Let's take a moment to reflect on what you just wrote. An international body with no Philistine members made a political decision in the name of some preferred historical narrative. Go on ...

the Arabs, who make up the majority of the population of Palestine, were expelled by the Jews into the enclave of the Palestinian Authority,

You are speaking about the Nakba. Today, Israel is perpetrating the 2nd Nakba through effective implementation of genocide. It's a well orchestrated plan.

 

[Alik Bahshi]

US President Biden spoke about the need to stop the war in Gaza. At the same time, he said that the creation of the state of Palestine would solve the conflict between Arabs and Jews.

 

[Walt]

There might never have been a Philistine country, but there has always been a Philistine nation.

According to the Bible, archeology, and other historical sources, there was a country called Philistia(where the Philistines lived). Samson traveled to the country of Philistia, and tour down their temple. It was a confederation of five city states into one country.

It existed from about the Bronze Age collapse to about the Fall of the First Temple. It was swept away by the Neo-Babylonians, just like Judah was.

There was no Philistine country, only a Philistine nation. Ergo, there was no "territory" in question that could have passed between anyone.

Philistia was the territory of the Gaza Strip, but several times bigger.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

US President Biden spoke about the need to stop the war in Gaza.

At the same time, he said that the creation of the state of Palestine would solve the conflict between Arabs and Jews.

Correct, Ali Baba, but it only takes one to start a war as October 7th proved. The Gazans need to prove they want peace by taking out Hamas and all the terrorists plus giving up their weapons and desire to murder Jews.

Yes, but that has never worked because too many Arabs...and Persians, want war.

 

[IBDaMann]

According to the Bible, archeology, and other historical sources, there was a country called Philistia(where the Philistines lived).

Yes, nope and nope. The KJV Bible mentions Philistia three times, all in Psalms, never in Judges (the account of Samson). No archeologist has ever unearthed any signs reading "Welcome to Philistia" or "Philistia in 4 million cubits". Everywhere the Philistines lived was Philistine (the land of the Philistines).

Samson traveled to the country of Philistia, and tour down their temple.

Samson went to the land of the Philistines, not Philistia. Philistia is not mentioned in Judges.

It was a confederation of five city states into one country.

Why should any rational adult believe that?

It existed from about the Bronze Age collapse to about the Fall of the First Temple.

That's one possible speculation. I can think of many more.

It was swept away by the Neo-Babylonians, just like Judah was.

Temples can be destroyed and "swept away" but land not so easily.

Philistia was the territory of the Gaza Strip, but several times bigger.

That's one speculation. Nobody knows, so your guess is as good as mine, and my guess is as good as yours.

 

[Walt]

Samson went to the land of the Philistines, not Philistia. Philistia is not mentioned in Judges.

The "Land of Philistines" is Philistia. It can also be written Philistine, or Philistia, but best guess is Philistia is closer to how they pronounced it.

Why should any rational adult believe that?

There are Egyptian, Babylonian, and even Philistine records that the five city confederation existed. The Jews have stories about the confederation. There is archaeological evidence for each of the 5 cities.

Temples can be destroyed and "swept away" but land not so easily.

It is the people who get swept away. They get killed, sold into slavery, exiled, assimilated, or some combination of all that. The exiling of whole population was extremely popular back then. The [possibly] breakaway Kingdom of Israel completely vanished swept away by the Assyrians. Judah almost vanished, with its population completely moved to Babylon. Afterwards, they spoke an entirely different language.

After Philistia was swept away, there were no speakers of the Philistine language.

That's one speculation. Nobody knows, so your guess is as good as mine, and my guess is as good as yours.

The archeological evidence is very clear.

 

[Walt]

The KJV Bible mentions Philistia three times

I am just going to point out that the King James Bible is not the best, closest source. We have all their sources, so it would be better to go to their sources or earlier.

 

[IBDaMann]

The "Land of Philistines" is Philistia.

We don't know that. You don't know that. All we can tell is that during the time indicated by Psalms, there was a place called Philistia. You speculate that it is equivalent to Philistine but that is just your speculation.

There are Egyptian, Babylonian, and even Philistine records that the five city confederation existed.

I don't believe there are any surviving records from that time describing anywhere near the detail you claim. Records written decades or centuries later are speculative urban legends.

The Jews have stories about the confederation.

As do you, apparently. It all amounts to a story, or do you really believe that there actually is a Nigerian banker trying to get all his cash out of the country?

There is archaeological evidence for each of the 5 cities.

There is no evidence that all five existed at the same time in the confederation you describe.

It is the people who get swept away. They get killed, sold into slavery, exiled, assimilated, or some combination of all that.

The Philistines did not get swept away in that sense. The Philistine nation has continued to this day, although I can't guarantee that they will survive the current Israeli genocide. We'll see.

The exiling of whole population was extremely popular back then.

It's extremely popular with the Israelis; they preserved that tradition.

Judah almost vanished, with its population completely moved to Babylon. Afterwards, they spoke an entirely different language.

Over time, all languages change completely. Have you read the original Beowulf? It's written in English.

After Philistia was swept away, there were no speakers of the Philistine language.

You don't know this. The Bible doesn't say this.

The archeological evidence is very clear.

There isn't any such evidence.

 

[IBDaMann]

I am just going to point out that the King James Bible is not the best, closest source.

KJV is absolutely the best source for analyzing the transition of the word Philistine->Palestine in the English language. KJV shows us that the Philistines were called Philistines up until the time of the writing of KJV and beyond. KJV is also responsible for the legitimacy of using the word "Philistine" instead of "Palestine/Palestinian". This was the motivation for citing the KJV in the first place.

 

[Walt]

The Philistines did not get swept away in that sense. The Philistine nation has continued to this day

Philistia ceased to exist at the same time Judah ceased to exist, shortly after Israel ceased to exist. We only know where one of those peoples are, and it is not Israel. According to the Old Testament, Israel broke away from Judah. Common sense says that if a country breaks away from Israel, it would not be called Israel, but we can move on from that. Historians and archaeologists even question now whether there really was the brief unified Monarchy of Israel.

Anyway, by the time of Jesus, there was no one claiming to be a Philistine, and Jews claimed that the Israelites were lost tribes. The Samaritans claimed they were the Israelites, but the Jews claim to not be involved with the final ancient Israel.

When the Romans destroyed Judea, they needed a new name for the land. The named it after a group that used to be there, the Philistines, but changed the name slightly to Palestine.

Random point, the Philistines were probably Indo-Europeans boat people who attacked Egypt during the Bronze Age Collapse, and were settled on Egypt's border.

 

[Walt]

KJV is absolutely the best source for analyzing the transition of the word Philistine->Palestine in the English language. KJV shows us that the Philistines were called Philistines up until the time of the writing of KJV and beyond. KJV is also responsible for the legitimacy of using the word "Philistine" instead of "Palestine/Palestinian". This was the motivation for citing the KJV in the first place.

Moses is the King James Bible is called Moshe in Hebrew. The Hebrew word shalom is miswritten as salem. We could go on and on, but the King James Bible is mostly based on Greek writing, and the Greeks had trouble with the sh sound.

The King James Bible was written before Hieroglyphs had been decoded, before archeology, and even before regular travel to the Middle East was possible. They had no access to any Philistine writing, nor Babylonian writing.

I could go on and on.

 

[IBDaMann]

Moses is the King James Bible is called Moshe in Hebrew.

You're confused. KJV is written in English. Words in other languages change when they are translated into English. The Arabic word "Philistine," however, did not change when written in the English of the KJV, and remains Philistine in Arabic to this day, although at some point it changed in English to Palestine. The Hebrew word "Philishtina" remained the same as well.

We could go on and on, but the King James Bible is mostly based on Greek writing,

KJV is based entirely in early modern English.

They had no access to any Philistine writing, nor Babylonian writing.

Fortunately, the name "Philistine" and "Philishtina" haven't changed.

 

[Walt]

The Arabic word "Philistine,"

Philistine is not an Arabic word. It is from the Philistine Language. There are not enough samples of the Philistine Language to be absolutely sure that it is Indo-European, but it is definitely not Semitic. Best guess is it is closely related to Greek.

The word Palestine was a Roman invention, again not Arabs. It is based on the Philistine word Philistine.

 

[IBDaMann]

Philistine is not an Arabic word.

Are you going to quibble that I didn't write it in Arabic? Fine. فلسطين - This word is pronounced "Philistine." It means Philistine/Palestine.

It is from the Philistine Language.

While little is known about the language of the ancient Philistines(nobody can travel back in time), a rational adult can surmise that the Philistines were in the category of Northwestern Semitic peoples who probably spoke Aramaic which spread to the Sinai Peninsula, to Mesopotamia, to the Levant and to Arabia ... and was a basis for modern Arabic.

The word Palestine was a Roman invention, again not Arabs.

Sorry, the Romans were not responsible for changing the English word from "Philistine" to "Palestine." The Philistines always referred to themselves as Philistines. Those who spoke Hebrew referred to the Philistines as "Philishtina" ... and often as "shit" or "fuckers" or whatever slurs they used in their language.

It is based on the Philistine word Philistine.

This, I'll buy.

 

[Alik Bahshi]

The Americans, realizing that Israel did not want to provide humanitarian assistance to the Palestinians, decided, without Netanyahu’s consent, to build a temporary port in Gaza to supply food, medicine and fuel.

 

[Phantasmal]

Correct, Ali Baba, but it only takes one to start a war as October 7th proved. The Gazans need to prove they want peace by taking out Hamas and all the terrorists plus giving up their weapons and desire to murder Jews.

Yes, but that has never worked because too many Arabs...and Persians, want war.

40% of Palestinians are children. They have no means to defeat Hamas, those who have tried have been murdered. You continuing this line shows you have limited understanding of the plight of the Palestinians.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

40% of Palestinians are children. They have no means to defeat Hamas, those who have tried have been murdered. You continuing this line shows you have limited understanding of the plight of the Palestinians.

Child warriors raised to hate Jews and to martyr themselves are just as dangerous as adults.

The telling fact for me is that no other Arab nations want to import Palestinians to their own countries. Why? Because the Palestinians in Gaza are a suicide cult.

I'll readily agree with you that Israel isn't perfect and has crossed the line a few times themselves. That said, this has been going on for 75 years with no end in sight, just more death and misery on both sides. Time to end this once and for all.

BTW, why hasn't the UN or other nations offered to send in troops to separate the combatants like they did in Africa, Bosnia and elsewhere? Is it because they, too, know the Palestinians are murderous nutjobs?

 

[Alik Bahshi]

40% of Palestinians are children. They have no means to defeat Hamas, those who have tried have been murdered. You continuing this line shows you have limited understanding of the plight of the Palestinians.

In this case, another factor comes into play. The fact is that Arab children saw Jews kill their parents, brothers and sisters, destroy their homes, annex their land. All of them are ready to take the place of every killed Hamas member. Israel has only two options: either kill all Palestinians or give freedom to the Arabs of Palestine and withdraw the army from Palestine, according to the UN decision of 1947.

 

[IBDaMann]

40% of Palestinians are children. They have no means to defeat Hamas, those who have tried have been murdered. You continuing this line shows you have limited understanding of the plight of the Palestinians.

Terry also shows that he doesn't know who did what on Oct 7th, and just bends over for Israel to ream him with their disinformation.

 

[IBDaMann]

In this case, another factor comes into play. The fact is that Arab children saw Jews kill their parents, brothers and sisters, destroy their homes, annex their land.

Yes, but all this means is that they are pretty much guaranteed to HATE Israelis, not necessarily to become terrorists ... or can we assume that you are a terrorist because there are some people in the world that you HATE?

All of them are ready to take the place of every killed Hamas member.

You don't get to speak for anyone but yourself. I know several Philistines and none of them are terrorists. Yes, they HATE Israelis but they aren't looking to join the Al Qassam brigades.

Israel has only two options:

Israel has many more options than that, some of which involve ceasing and desisting all hostilities, begining to adhere to the Geneva Conventions, and making reparations for everything they have destroyed.