Althea
Althea told me...........
That's just plain silly
October 7, - cause and effect
- Thread starter Alik Bahshi
- Start date
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Incorrect. You just pivoted. We were discussing how to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Suddenly, you shifted semantics to "withdrawal of all Israeli troops from the territory of occupied Palestine and the return of refugees." That is somewhat dishonest.
So I will reiterate, the best option to end the conflict is for Israel to cease and desist with the genocide and to make reparations for what they have done.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Correct. The Geneva Conventions specify/define (delineate requirements for) who are considered lawful combatants, who are unlawful combatants, who are lawful noncombatants and who are unlawful noncombatants.
If it is one sided, then what would stop Hamas from continuing to attack civilians? Hamas is holding hostages to try to force a ceasefire with some concessions, if they get the ceasefire and the concessions, why not just kill the hostages?
Many of the incomplete "peace plans" start with the killing of dozens of civilian hostages, and continue on with the killing of more civilians.
I am not saying my ideas for a peace plan are much better. There is no chance at instant peace. It will take decades of hard work to get to a real peace. trump is allergic to hard work, and he surrounds himself with people who are allergic to hard work. That is why it is so important to reelect Biden.
Who would be an unlawful noncombatant? I guess maybe a civilian criminal? The Geneva Convention is a little vague on how to handle that. It really just says they should go through normal channels. Normal channels differ drastically by country.
Lets say Hamas captures your hometown, and you are caught drinking a beer. Should they be allowed to stone you to death?
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Hamas has nothing to do with hostages. The Al Qassam militants attacked Israel, killed people and took hostages. Hamas won't/can't be making any such announcements.
Israel hasn't done anything to help any situation. The IDF is killing Arabs who never attacked them in the first place. Israel's only focus is the perpetration of the 2nd Nakba, and to force Gazans (Arabs) to have to fish as many of their children's corpses out of rubble as possible. The Israelis certainly aren't looking to help any situation.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
You could read the Geneva Conventions and find the answer to your question. The really short answer is that unlawful noncombatants are those of an occupied population who are not complying with the legal orders of the occupiers. Noncompliance of legal orders loses one's lawful non-combatant status and protections. The Geneva Conventions place many restrictions on an invading/occupying force and, in doing so, establishes the framework for what is allowed. Lawful noncombatants must comply with legal orders.
False. It's quite clear.
If Al Qassam were to invade/occupy my hometown, they would become obligated to protect all lawful noncombatants. Al Qassam could prohibit alcohol. Any noncombatant who is aware of the new prohibition and nonetheless drinks of the prohibited contraband becomes an unlawful noncombatant and can be punished. Executions are not permitted, however, without major external coordination.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
I'd like to know the answer too, but don't expect any factual, referenced citations from Sybil.
QED
Alik Bahshi
Verified User
You see, I outlined the demands of the Palestinians, namely the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Palestinian territory, according to the UN map, and the return of all refugees. You propose that Israel stop the genocide and pay compensation for the destruction. But the fact is that Israel does not recognize genocide. On the other hand, you say nothing about the liberation of Palestine from occupation and from Israeli military control of Palestine. That is, you want to return the situation to what it was before October 7th.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
But the fact is that Israel doesn't recognize Palestine, or Palestinians' right to exist.
Correct. It's totally immaterial at this point. The 2nd Nakba is underway.
If I could, that would be great! Think of all the slaughtered children who would get to be alive again.
Alik Bahshi
Verified User
In short, you ignore the conflict and want to return a democratic people to a situation of genocide and the seizure of Palestinian territory in favor of Israel. What happens with the death of children, then this is what I will tell you - the poverty of children from the day they are born lives in conditions of deadly war and genocide, for them until temporary death it is a common occurrence.
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Are you talking about the 1947 UN partition map? That was a proposed map rejected by all parties at the time. The time was 77 years ago. No one is returning to that map. It would involve the moving of huge numbers of people, breaking up a recognized country, and Hamas will not even agree to it.
To get to a two state solution, there needs to be a huge amount of groundwork. If we allow terrorists to murder civilians, and then immediately give them a country, then we will see nothing but terrorist attacks. The first step would be the release of the hostages, and a ceasefire. Not a massive retreat, and a surrender to terrorists.
Al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of Hamas. It is like saying the US Government has nothing to do with the actions of US Army. Except the US Army takes an oath of allegiance to the US Government, whereas Hamas takes an oath of allegiance to Al-Qassam Brigades. The Brigades get votes in the Hamas government, where the people of Gaza do not.
Israel drove the terrorists back into Gaza, and then into southern Gaza. They killed many of the terrorists. They have freed a few of the hostages. They have driven the terrorists to the negotiation table. And they have been willing to indirectly negotiate with the terrorists.
You forgot to translate this from your native Russian. Alik Bahshi is a Russian propagandist for trump, for all those who did not know.
Using Google Translate, I came up with this translation of Alik Bahshi's post:
"In short, you ignore the conflict and want to return a democratic people to a situation of genocide and the seizure of Palestinian territory in favor of Israel. What happens with the death of children, then this is what I will tell you - the poverty of children from the day they are born lives in conditions of deadly war and genocide, for them until temporary death it is a common occurrence."
Hardly democratic. There has not been an election in Gaza nearly 20 years. Fatah took the minority of the votes, but did get some representatives elected. Those representatives were killed or run off by Al-Qassam Brigades, so Hamas got absolute control. They have refused to allow an election since then.
Hamas started this by killing children. They targeted children.
Alik Bahshi
Verified User
Yes, sorry for the inattention. The terrorists killed everyone they caught indiscriminately. They see every Israeli as an enemy. Nobody denies this. But here I am analyzing the cause of terror and war between Jews and Arabs. It must be said that every war is accompanied by terror. This is well demonstrated in Russia's war with Ukraine. The same thing happened in World War II. See my article "International terrorism and interested parties."
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IBDaMann
Well-known member
You are the one ignoring the conflict; I'm pushing for it to end. You are guilty of hijacking the word "conflict" to refer to your political agenda.
Again, you are the one ignoring the conflict which is the genocide perpetrated on Arabs in Gaza.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
"Al Qassam Brigades" <> "Hamas" <> "Palestinians". Nobody gets to equate them. It would be like saying the FBI controls actions of US Army.
False.
The covenant in question reads identically to any oath/vow taken by Christians if you merely replace "Allah" with "God" and "Islam" with "Christianity." The part specific to Palestine refers to martyrdom as being the highest sacrifice and that the issue is Zionist invaders eliminating Islam from parts of Palestine. The main thesis statement is Article 6:
Article 6: It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails, and schisms and wars will break out.
Totally irrelevant. How someone votes does not warrant any death sentence. Nobody's opinion warrants any death sentence. Only those who attacked Israel are guilty of having attacked Israel. You keep trying to impute guilt by association, first to Hamas and then to "Palestinians." This is dishonest and immoral.
Only the perpetrators of the Oct 7th attack are guilty and should be punished ... and nobody else, especially not any innocent children, regardless of the extent to which logic is completely bastardized and regardless of the horrific extreme to which Israeli racist HATRED has reached.
You don't know this and I don't believe it. I think it's pretty obvious that most of the Al Qassam attackers who perpetrated the Oct 7th attack escaped the region promptly after the attack. Israelis simply knee-jerked into their standard "collective punishment" mode because they're fuqqers in that regard and they think that such is perfectly OK.
Once again, the IDF did not invade Iran to take out the Ayatollah, the perpetrator of the attack. It's Arabs that they HATE, not Persians.
Nope. They killed civilian lawful noncombatants and dishonestly declared several to have been "terrorists" to seemingly justify the slaughter of innocents. Interviews with IDF soldiers revealed their logic for declaring dead bodies as "terrorists" is that "they were still there when we attacked, so they must have been terrorists." I am not exaggerating. I was appalled. At least it taught me that everything announced by the IDF and by Israel on the matter is a lie. For the first time in my life, Al Jazeera is proving to be one of the most reliable sources of information (nonetheless with their biases still visible).
Nope. The IDF's irrefutable violations of the Geneva Conventions forces Israel to the negotiation table ... but their racist HATRED and their obsession to effect the 2nd Nakba has them sabotaging all negotiations so they can get back to the reckless killing and to the starving of Arab children, which fills Israelis with glee.
Alik Bahshi
Verified User
If I ignored, as you say, the Arab-Israeli conflict, I would not open a topic about it. I understand that you don’t like the fact that I see a solution to the conflict in ending Israel’s occupation of Palestine and creating a state called Palestine, as conceived by the UN in 1947. Today, thanks to the Palestinian resistance, even President Biden has spoken about the need to create a state of Palestine.
Kamala Trump
Verified User
and there were always non jews there at the same time.
is the old testament a real estate registry office?
they weren't fucking all greeks either.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
You are erroneously using the subjunctive. You have, in fact, opened a topic about your hopes and desires for Palestine, but have inappropriately hijacked the term "conflict" to conceal your agenda.
You understand incorrectly. I don't like the fact that you are claiming to be solving the "conflict" when you are merely trying to advance a differing political agenda. Between the two of us, I am the one trying to end the "conflict."
How does this resolve the current conflict? Hint: it doesn't. If the world were to recognize Palestine from the river to the sea, the 2nd Nakba would still be underway and the IDF would still be slaughtering children. The conflict would not have been ended.
All that does is derail conversations concerned with ending the conflict.
End the conflict first, then push your agenda afterwards.