Oh, But It's NOT Nation Building!
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
- Start date
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funny how you and blameman leave this sentence out of the "estimate":
Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
i don't know about you, but i know MM wanted troops gone years ago, he wanted us to fail in iraq, so using your own report, leaving iraq to soon will have the opposite effect.
Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
i don't know about you, but i know MM wanted troops gone years ago, he wanted us to fail in iraq, so using your own report, leaving iraq to soon will have the opposite effect.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
So did Iraq! So does Saudi Arabia, for that matter! This is not the criteria for taking unilateral military action, is it? Seems to me, I recall a lot of bluster on your part, over just this sort of thing! Suddenly, now it's okay!
You don't generally bomb your friends and allies! Whether they have control is also not on the table... you took that off with Sadam, remember? There were terrorist training camps in Salman Pak, out of Saddam's control in the Kurdish north... remember? alQaeda was training in Iraq, and it was documented, but that didn't matter to you because it was out of Saddam's control.... remember? I do!
And it's curious that you are now using what you once called "fear tactics" to invoke a sense of urgency regarding Pakistan. When the same case was made for Iraq, you said there was no threat, no way these rag tag groups could do harm to the US from the third world.... now, they are suddenly an imminent threat to national security! I tell you, this is just TOO much!
Then you misread the NIE. Iraq wasn't a fuck up, YOU are a fuck up! alQaeda is a shell of its former self. There are probably a dozen other radical extremist groups aligned with fundamentalist Islam, which pose a greater threat than alQaeda. For all intents and purposes, alQaeda is no longer a serious threat to anyone.
LMAO... don't make me laugh! You have always been a habitual LIAR!
maineman
Banned
whether you chose to believe it or not, the vast majority of the world's muslims are reasonable and moderate folks. They were not supportive of the actions of the Taliban and were NOT fuming mad at our ouster of them - especially when their relationship with AQ could be so definitely confirmed in the wake of 9/11.
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LMAO...oh but they were supportive of saddam? more support the ISLAMIC government than saddam. saddam did not have sharia law unlike the taliban despite the taliban's hardline stance. how selective your weak memory is that you can't remember how they chanted death to america when we invaded afghanistan....how easily you "forget" how pakistanis support the taliban....
you're absolutely clueless when it comes to the ME. you do realize you are claiming that the VAST MAJORITY of muslims SUPPORT the afghanistan action....what a moron.
maineman
Banned
The difference being that the folks who attacked us did not stage their attack on us from Saudia Arabia...and the folks who attacked us have not maintained bases of operation in Saudi Arabia in the intervening seven years.
Salman Pak is not in the Kurdish North..it's about 15 miles south of Baghdad...but then, anyone who had studied the area, or had ever GONE there would KNOW that. I would have been perfectly happy, had we ascertained that the 9/11 hijackers had trained in the kurdish north, to have launched a strike at that site.
The same group that attacked us on 9/11 is still operating in the area on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. AQ, by our own intelligence agencies' estimates, is just as strong as it was on 9/11. They have never stopped being a threat to our security. Iraq, on the other hand, never was.
You'll need to actually read the NIE's... they disagree with your interpretation pretty conclusively.
maineman
Banned
note the future tense use of "will be" as opposed to the present tense they use to describe the current capabilities of AQ and the effects that the Iraq was is having on present day recruiting efforts. And do you not believe that AQ recruiters will ALWAYS portray any outcome as a success against us?
maineman
Banned
I make no such claim... unless there are really only two possible responses to our invasion of Afghanistan: fuming mad, and SUPPORT. Really... your english language capabilities are pathetic. I do NOT remember any significant number of muslims chanting death to America when we went into Afghanistan looking for the folks who attacked us... I DO remember that the arab street was outraged that we invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq which had ZIP to do with the attacks against us. Some pakistanis DO support the taliban... many do not. Bhutto was a VERY popular pakistani politician...and she certainly was anti-taliban and very pro-western.
"Moron"? isn't that a bit insulting? I think so...and here I thought we'd turned over a new leaf, or did you intend for your apology to cover past AND future insults?
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I make no such claim... unless there are really only two possible responses to our invasion of Afghanistan: fuming mad, and SUPPORT. Really... your english language capabilities are pathetic. I do NOT remember any significant number of muslims chanting death to America when we went into Afghanistan looking for the folks who attacked us... I DO remember that the arab street was outraged that we invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq which had ZIP to do with the attacks against us. Some pakistanis DO support the taliban... many do not. Bhutto was a VERY popular pakistani politician...and she certainly was anti-taliban and very pro-western.
"Moron"? isn't that a bit insulting? I think so...and here I thought we'd turned over a new leaf, or did you intend for your apology to cover past AND future insults?
you pissed on my apology and i will never again believe you want to make things peaceful. you lied...you also have made PRIVATE communications public...nice going hypocrite....maybe i should consider any agreement of trust made in those PMs null and void....
i asked you at least a dozen times to drop it, just end it, let it go, stop PMing me.... but no, you had to continue whining to me in PM about this shit. then i apologize as you kept whining for an apology and what do you do, you insult and make false claims about me in yoru next PM. you are loser and liar. do not ever bring it up again moron...i will not be fooled by your lies anymore and don't forget, you are the one who started this whole PM business. do not PM again. this was your last chance and you pissed on it.
as to the thread:
you have no credibility on ME events or opinions, nuff said.
maineman
Banned
and YOU are somehow the judge of MY credibility on the Middle East??? That's funny.
Please state your credentials that allow you to judge me thusly.
MM.....
perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.
• The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for
the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
===================
You mis-characterize what you read...
1. "perceived jihadist success" Yes success COULD inspire more fighters....but in fact, they have had no success... in reality, they've been defeated at every turn....it didn't happen, it COULD have have but didn't....
2. The Iraq war was a rallying cry for the jihadists...I agree...
but the NIE doesn't stop there....perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
Thats quite a qualifier, don't you see....and if they have failed, and are not perceived successful in Iraq....
The NIE paints many scenarios of what might or could happen if A or B or C happens, or continues, or gets worse or better, or whatever...
============================
Post 54 link ...states this directly BEFORE the part you quoted...
Paints a different picture than your quote...
So most of your relevant claims contain a lot of IFS, or should this occur then....etc....
the only thing definite was the claim that the Iraq conflict was a “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for
the global jihadist movement.
With no great consequence to our safety for these past 6 years....
-----------------------------------------------
So I conclude you read and comprehend from a pessimistic frame of mind....
While I comprehend these NIEs using an optimistic frame of mind...
You Bush hate, 'yellow dog' attitude colors your perceptions....and thats understandable....
Thanks for the links...I read those same NIEs getting a quite different sense of what they were saying....
perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.
• The Iraq conflict has become the “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for
the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
===================
You mis-characterize what you read...
1. "perceived jihadist success" Yes success COULD inspire more fighters....but in fact, they have had no success... in reality, they've been defeated at every turn....it didn't happen, it COULD have have but didn't....
2. The Iraq war was a rallying cry for the jihadists...I agree...
but the NIE doesn't stop there....perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.
Thats quite a qualifier, don't you see....and if they have failed, and are not perceived successful in Iraq....
The NIE paints many scenarios of what might or could happen if A or B or C happens, or continues, or gets worse or better, or whatever...
============================
Post 54 link ...states this directly BEFORE the part you quoted...
=====
Paints a different picture than your quote...
So most of your relevant claims contain a lot of IFS, or should this occur then....etc....
the only thing definite was the claim that the Iraq conflict was a “cause celebre” for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for
the global jihadist movement.
With no great consequence to our safety for these past 6 years....
-----------------------------------------------
So I conclude you read and comprehend from a pessimistic frame of mind....
While I comprehend these NIEs using an optimistic frame of mind...
You Bush hate, 'yellow dog' attitude colors your perceptions....and thats understandable....
Thanks for the links...I read those same NIEs getting a quite different sense of what they were saying....
maineman
Banned
you are welcome, old friend...
and I will admit that I am not a bit surprised that you would find optimism in the fact that the Iraq war has been a cause celebre for jihadists.
MM:
whether you chose to believe it or not, the vast majority of the world's muslims are reasonable and moderate folks. They were not supportive of the actions of the Taliban and were NOT fuming mad at our ouster of them - especially when their relationship with AQ could be so definitely confirmed in the wake of 9/11.
So even as you insist the Muslims were fuming mad and pissed off, joining AQ by what ?, millions, thousands?, ...because of Iraq......
They are at the same time moderate, reasonable and even supportaive in our killing the Taliban Muslims.....
Thats the logic of a hack, my friend....
MM:
I make no such claim... unless there are really only two possible responses to our invasion of Afghanistan: fuming mad, and SUPPORT. Really... your english language capabilities are pathetic. I do NOT remember any significant number of muslims chanting death to America when we went into Afghanistan looking for the folks who attacked us... I DO remember that the arab street was outraged that we invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq which had ZIP to do with the attacks against us.
Though you seem to have selective memory, I don't think I do...
I remember the Muslims dancing in the streets calibrating 9/11 and deliriously happy about the deaths of 3000 US citizens......in various countries throughout the world...
I do remember some chanting "death to America" in Afghanistan when we arrived there...and I remember Iraqis dancing with happiness pulling down the statue of Saddam....
Do we see only what we want to see ?
whether you chose to believe it or not, the vast majority of the world's muslims are reasonable and moderate folks. They were not supportive of the actions of the Taliban and were NOT fuming mad at our ouster of them - especially when their relationship with AQ could be so definitely confirmed in the wake of 9/11.
So even as you insist the Muslims were fuming mad and pissed off, joining AQ by what ?, millions, thousands?, ...because of Iraq......
They are at the same time moderate, reasonable and even supportaive in our killing the Taliban Muslims.....
Thats the logic of a hack, my friend....
MM:
I make no such claim... unless there are really only two possible responses to our invasion of Afghanistan: fuming mad, and SUPPORT. Really... your english language capabilities are pathetic. I do NOT remember any significant number of muslims chanting death to America when we went into Afghanistan looking for the folks who attacked us... I DO remember that the arab street was outraged that we invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq which had ZIP to do with the attacks against us.
Though you seem to have selective memory, I don't think I do...
I remember the Muslims dancing in the streets calibrating 9/11 and deliriously happy about the deaths of 3000 US citizens......in various countries throughout the world...
I do remember some chanting "death to America" in Afghanistan when we arrived there...and I remember Iraqis dancing with happiness pulling down the statue of Saddam....
Do we see only what we want to see ?
you are welcome, old friend...
and I will admit that I am not a bit surprised that you would find optimism in the fact that the Iraq war has been a cause celebre for jihadists.
you must take that line...."the Iraq war has been a cause celebre for jihadists"
out of context to arrive at your conclusion...
I prefer to read the entire paragraph its contained in, to give it proper meaning and weight...as I believe the writers of the NIE intended....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
No, they were maintaining bases in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on the Afghan/Pakistan border. Iraq had the same connections to terrorism as Pakistan. When OBL was asked where alQaeda planned to expand, he pointed toward Iraq, not Pakistan. The participation of alQaeda against us in the Iraq war, is telling of the importance that area held for them. Only some irrelevant koolaid drenched liberal from Maine, couldn't comprehend this.
I know where Salman Pak is, there were terrorist bases at Salman Pak, AS WELL AS, the Kurdish north. You staunchly refused to accept these as "evidence of Iraq connection to terrorism" ...but now... all of a sudden... these are valid and acceptable things to use for a war on Pakistan!
The 19 men who perpetrated 9/11, are not in Iraq, Afghanistan, OR Pakistan! This is a fundamental war on radical Islam. The Enemy is spread out all over the middle east, through Indonesia, in parts of Africa, sweeping into Europe, and apparently now getting welfare checks from the US! You want to use your typical liberal soda-straw perspective again, and focus on some old fart on dialysis in a cave, as if getting him will make this all go away, and that is not living in reality. It's about the most utterly stupid perspective a person could possibly have, particularly one who actually served our armed forces.
Maine, it does not surprise me, that you interpret the NIE's as disagreeing with me, you have shown yourself to be quite an artful dodger when it comes to the English language and word definitions. So, with all due respect, I take you for your word, you believe the NIE contradicts what I've said, and you believe it is conclusive.
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it is naive to believe that one NIE (e=estimate) report is the gospel when it comes to the war on terror and muslim reactions or causes concerning the US...the very title is an estimate, it is not factual....and if one has any intellectual honesty that will see that iraq is but one of many other factors for jihad causes....
IMO, the report is suspect for NOT mentioning afghanistan in any detail, if at all. the world witnessed muslim anger over our invasion of afghanistan, to pretend there were no riots, chants of deaths etc...over afghanistan is silliness at best and stupid or dishonest at worst.
IMO, the report is suspect for NOT mentioning afghanistan in any detail, if at all. the world witnessed muslim anger over our invasion of afghanistan, to pretend there were no riots, chants of deaths etc...over afghanistan is silliness at best and stupid or dishonest at worst.
maineman
Banned
Al Qaeda in Iraq was always a franchise operation set up in Iraq AFTER our invasion and occupation. Their participation against us in Iraq was due entirely to the fact that we were IN Iraq. If one wants to kill Americans easily, one goes to the closest neighborhood that has them... Putting IED's inside of pig carcasses were INFINITELY easier to pull off than jetliner hijackings.
You sentence is pretty unambiguous: "There were terrorist training camps in Salman Pak, out of Saddam's control in the Kurdish north... remember?" Anyone with a basic understanding of the english language would conclude from that sentence that you were geographically placing Salman Pak out of Saddam's control in the Kurdish north. And, I still DO take the training of AQ members in northern Iraq as something unrelated to Saddam Hussein and irrelevant as a rationale for his overthrow. And NOWHERE does ANYONE from the Obama administration advocate a "war on Pakistan". We will simply conduct military operations against anti-American/anti-Pakistan extremist encampments that are outside the area effectively controlled by the Pakistani government. That is not war ON Pakistan.
Quite the contrary. I am all for a mobile and responsive force ready to take on all aspects of Islamic extremism where ever it may be... it just so happens that a major concentration of their forces is holed up in the areas surrounding the Pakistan/Afghanistan border- where they have been for years now... and that is where the Obama administration will go to engage them. Unlike Bush, who, when he had them cornered in Afghanistan, lost interest and invaded Iraq for no good reason.
"Cause Celebre" is pretty unambiguous. With all due respect, I take you at your word that you don't seem to care what the NIE's actually say if they have anything the least bit negative to say about your hero in blue jeans.
The NIE being referenced is not the only source of the idea that Iraq has been an excellent recruitment tool for terrorists. The whole idea that has been is not something that is really even debated anymore.
And it IS something; all you have are generalizations & insults, usually colored by ideology.
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and you don't think that report and your and MM's reading of it is colored by ideology? come on....
are you actually in MM's camp that the vast majority of muslims did not mind us invading afghanistan? his claim is really that they support it, i mean, he claims that they were "not fuming mad"....so were they just upset, bothered, like oh well....do you really believe that? do you really believe the vast majority of muslims were not angry over our invasion of iraq?