Oh, But It's NOT Nation Building!

Yurt said:
it is naive to believe that one NIE (e=estimate) report is the gospel when it comes to the war on terror and muslim reactions or causes concerning the US...the very title is an estimate, it is not factual....and if one has any intellectual honesty that will see that iraq is but one of many other factors for jihad causes....

IMO, the report is suspect for NOT mentioning afghanistan in any detail, if at all. the world witnessed muslim anger over our invasion of afghanistan, to pretend there were no riots, chants of deaths etc...over afghanistan is silliness at best and stupid or dishonest at worst.
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again...I am not suggesting that Iraq is the ONLY reason that Islamic extremism is on the rise... it is a big one, however. "Cause Celebre" means what it says... it is AN issue arousing widespread controversy and heated debate...not THE ONLY issue.

And again... unless you can produce links reporting massive protests over our invasion of Afghanistan that, in any way, match the outrage from the arab street over our invasion, conquest and occupation of Iraq, I would suggest that it is YOU who is being silly, or stupid, or, dare I say it, dishonest.
 
Yurt said:
and you don't think that report and your and MM's reading of it is colored by ideology? come on....

are you actually in MM's camp that the vast majority of muslims did not mind us invading afghanistan? his claim is really that they support it, i mean, he claims that they were "not fuming mad"....so were they just upset, bothered, like oh well....do you really believe that? do you really believe the vast majority of muslims were not angry over our invasion of iraq?
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I think that the vast majority of muslims around the world thought that Afghanistan and the Taliban had it coming to them for allowing Al Qaeda safe haven before and after 9/11. The vast majority of the world's muslims are not ardent AQ supporters. The vast majority of the world's muslims did not approve of the actions of AQ on 9/11.
 
Dixie said:
Kindly tell us about Afghanistan's capability of striking US soil? They have no missiles capable of reaching the US, they have no jets capable of flying to the US, heck, they probably don't even have a boat seaworthy enough to make it to US shores. They are largely a 3rd world country, with very little military means to attack a superpower.

And Pakistan.... we keep forgetting to include Pakistan in this conversation! Under Bush, the nuclear-armed Pakistan was an ally, helping us in the fight against terrorism as best they could for a Muslim nation... under Obama, they are "the enemy" and we plan to unilaterally invade them, with no diplomatic effort, no UN approval, no exit strategy, and no coalition.

If it weren't so absolutely terrifying, it would be amusing to watch liberal pinheads turn into war hawks before our very eyes!
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Errr Dixie, you seem to be forgetting that Afghanistan based Al Queada terrorist flew 3 jets into US buildings killing thousands of Americans. Now....call me crazy.....but maybe, just maybe....that just might meet the standard of "A clear and present danger".
 
Onceler said:
The NIE being referenced is not the only source of the idea that Iraq has been an excellent recruitment tool for terrorists. The whole idea that has been is not something that is really even debated anymore.

And it IS something; all you have are generalizations & insults, usually colored by ideology.
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There is no denying from me that Iraq was used as a recruitment tool for AQ....its their actual success in reality that I question....
The AQ in Iraq have for all practical purposes failed...and having failed, any perceived value of the Iraq war as a tool for AQ recruitment is over-rated at best....
 
maineman said:
Afghanistan had, and I am sure still has, the capability of harboring nineteen AQ operatives who are capable of flying jet airplanes into American skyscrapers.

I have never heard Obama refer to the nation of Pakistan as our enemy. Pakistan may have been, and may continue to be our "ally", but they clearly do not have control over large areas of their own territory. It is in THOSE areas that Al Qaeda and Taliban extremists continue to operate freely and where they continue to train the next generations of terrorists who will, at some point, attempt to leave that area and initiate another assault on American soil or American interests.

I firmly believe, that if we had NOT fucked up and invaded Iraq, we would NOT now have this extensive a problem in that area...and the 2007 NIE which states that AQ is just as powerful and capable and dangerous to us as they were on 9/11, primarily because of the Iraq war.

And I have ALWAYS been a war hawk regarding Al Qaeda. You, on the other hand, have ALWAYS been a chickenhawk... perfectly willing to send other people's sons to fight and die for you, but not willing to actually do any fighting yourself. You'll recall, Dixie, that while some of us were content to man the keyboards in the fight against Al Qaeda, some of us actually volunteered to return to active duty to do more than just type about it.
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Maineman...what a waste of time. Has Dixie ever shown a penchant for listening to any ugly facts that would contradict the right wing kook-aid he drinks?
 
maineman said:
again...I am not suggesting that Iraq is the ONLY reason that Islamic extremism is on the rise... it is a big one, however. "Cause Celebre" means what it says... it is AN issue arousing widespread controversy and heated debate...not THE ONLY issue.

And again... unless you can produce links reporting massive protests over our invasion of Afghanistan that, in any way, match the outrage from the arab street over our invasion, conquest and occupation of Iraq, I would suggest that it is YOU who is being silly, or stupid, or, dare I say it, dishonest.
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Why the need for links...you should have been watching it on TV like everybody else was at the time....:pke:
 
maineman said:
I think that the vast majority of muslims around the world thought that Afghanistan and the Taliban had it coming to them for allowing Al Qaeda safe haven before and after 9/11. The vast majority of the world's muslims are not ardent AQ supporters. The vast majority of the world's muslims did not approve of the actions of AQ on 9/11.
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Are you implying the Iraq War didn't swell the ranks of AQ by those imaginary 10's of thousands....???:cof1:

The vast majority of the world's muslims did not approve of the actions of AQ on 9/11.
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What..?.. that dancing in the streets all over the Mualim world was only a FOX Network special effects event....or maybe, I didn't really see it, it was all a dream....
.
..
You're unbelievable lad....(shakes head)
 
bravo said:
Are you implying the Iraq War didn't swell the ranks of AQ by those imaginary 10's of thousands....???:cof1:



What..?.. that dancing in the streets all over the Mualim world was only a FOX Network special effects event....or maybe, I didn't really see it, it was all a dream....
.
..
You're unbelievable lad....(shakes head)
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I guess you missed the respectful and somber moment of silence at the packed giant sports arena in Tehran ... I am not surprised. I doubt Faux News had that on... and I am sure that Rush never spoke of it.

those dancing in the streets were a tiny minority of the world's islamic population.
 
I love how bravo paints all Muslims by the people dancing in the streets.

They represent the tiniest fraction of a tenth of a tenth of a percent of all Muslims in the world.
 
Onceler said:
I love how bravo paints all Muslims by the people dancing in the streets.

They represent the tiniest fraction of a tenth of a tenth of a percent of all Muslims in the world.
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sort of like you painting all tea partiers as paid for and by republican and corporate interests?
 
bravo said:
Sure, if I had actually done that
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Well...when I said:

"The vast majority of the world's muslims did not approve of the actions of AQ on 9/11."

YOU REPLIED:

"What..?.. that dancing in the streets all over the Muslim world was only a FOX Network special effects event....or maybe, I didn't really see it, it was all a dream...."

but of course, you'd never own up to its clear meaning.
 
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maineman said:
Well...when I said:

"The vast majority of the world's muslims did not approve of the actions of AQ on 9/11."

YOU REPLIED:

"What..?.. that dancing in the streets all over the Muslim world was only a FOX Network special effects event....or maybe, I didn't really see it, it was all a dream...."

but of course, you'd never own up to its clear meaning.
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Ok MM...I might have overstated it....and the celibrations did not all take place on 9/11 or 9/12 and some not even in 2001, and not ALL over the world.......but calibrate they did...

Indonesia
Egypt
Tehran
Great Britain
Gaza
East Jeruslaem
West Bank
and last but not least
United States
 
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