On being a blank slate and "free will"

ZenMode said:
We have free will.

we can understand all these things about conditioning and pathways and that's true.

and we can still choose to do something different.

Restating what you want to believe, without providing any actual support for your position, doesn't really mean much.
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has a person ever stopped being an alcoholic?

quit eating sugar?

stopped an abusive pattern in their lives?
 
Jack said:
The 'Motivated/Driven' blank slate will 'think' more than the average blank slate. The DNA one inherits has a direct effect on what/who 'YOU' are/become. Basically, a lot of 'YOU' is pre-determined before we exit the vagina.
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I agree that a lot of who we are is determined by genetics, but we obviously have no control over who our parents were, so we can't really claim responsibility for our genes.

Not sure what you mean here:

"The 'Motivated/Driven' blank slate will 'think' more than the average blank slate. "
 
AssHatZombie said:
has a person ever stopped being an alcoholic?

quit eating sugar?

stopped an abusive pattern in their lives?
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Of course. A lack of free will doesn't prohibit us from changing. It's quite the opposite, actually. The fact that we DON'T have free will is what allows us to change. I mentioned before the understanding of 2+2=4. At some point in your life, your teacher explained that to you and you understood it and, since then, you have no way of not understanding that 2+2=4. If we had free will, aka the freedom to not be impacted by outside influences, you would be able to believe that 2+2=5, or really whatever you want it to equal.

Think about what it's like to not know something and the know it. Is there freedom in that? Are you free to not learn something that you have learned? Have you ever believed something and then had someone present information that was so convincing that your mind was changed on the spot? If we had free will, we would be free to not be convinced by the most convincing of arguments. You would just use your free will to continue believing whatever you wanted to believe, right?
 
ZenMode said:
Of course. A lack of free will doesn't prohibit us from changing. It's quite the opposite, actually. The fact that we DON'T have free will is what allows us to change. I mentioned before the understanding of 2+2=4. At some point in your life, your teacher explained that to you and you understood it and, since then, you have no way of not understanding that 2+2=4. If we had free will, aka the freedom to not be impacted by outside influences, you would be able to believe that 2+2=5, or really whatever you want it to equal.

Think about what it's like to not know something and the know it. Is there freedom in that? Are you free to not learn something that you have learned? Have you ever believed something and then had someone present information that was so convincing that your mind was changed on the spot? If we had free will, we would be free to not be convinced by the most convincing of arguments. You would just use your free will to continue believing whatever you wanted to believe, right?
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It's our choice to choose what we believe.

plenty of people believe 2+2=5.

or trump was a russian agent.

they have a right to be stupid, many of them will choose to continue that.

many will continue to believe fat is fabulous.
 
AssHatZombie said:
It's our choice to choose what we believe.

plenty of people believe 2+2=5.

or trump was a russian agent.

they have a right to be stupid, many of them will choose to continue that.

many will continue to believe fat is fabulous.
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Political beliefs are just another example of thoughts being influenced by outside forces.

While some people may believe that 2+2 is 5, I can't believe there are many. Seems to me that your life would be extremely difficult if you believed that. I assume, however, that you believe 2+2=4. Can you use your free will, aka your ability to control your thoughts, to believe that 2+2=5?
 
Celticguy said:
Animals (and not all of them) instinctively fear everything (not just humans) as the instinct drives whether the animal is predator, prey or further up the food chain.
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Awesome. Beat your dog every time he comes when called, and let me know what happens.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree that a lot of who we are is determined by genetics, but we obviously have no control over who our parents were, so we can't really claim responsibility for our genes.

Not sure what you mean here:

"The 'Motivated/Driven' blank slate will 'think' more than the average blank slate. "
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We are half nature and half nurture. Free will has to be developed and earned. Even if it was handed out at birth it could still be beaten out of us. Only 5% end up with free will, the other 95% trade it away for safety or security.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree that a lot of who we are is determined by genetics, but we obviously have no control over who our parents were, so we can't really claim responsibility for our genes.

Not sure what you mean here:

"The 'Motivated/Driven' blank slate will 'think' more than the average blank slate. "
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I was trying to stick to your OP and the concept of 'blank slate'. Yes. I agree we are born as 'blank slates' and have no opinions about anything at that time.
And I agree that we are influenced by our surroundings, what we read, what we are taught.
What I meant by 'motivated', is that some are 'driven' to read, experience, explore MORE than others.

As an example, some are taught a 'religious belief' of how the world began. And they accept that as true and never go beyond that belief. Others are 'motivated' to question that.
Some may have a Talent for something, and are 'motivated' to enhance that Talent. Become a better Musician, Painter, Mathematician.

ZenMode: "we obviously have no control over who our parents were, so we can't really claim responsibility for our genes."
Jack: Yes. That was my point. Much of 'YOU' (who we are) is pre-determined, we have no control over.

Homosexual. Not much 'Free Will' when it comes to your sexuality.
 
AssHatZombie said:
you're one of the totalitarian ones who seek to denigrate free will so you can be a totalitarian with a free conscience.
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'Free Will' makes sense to me.

"Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. Wikipedia"
 
Jack said:
'Free Will' makes sense to me.

"Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. Wikipedia"
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nice.
 
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