Scientism

Doc Dutch said:
Lots of times. Mostly in my youth and almost always when I was pissed off. Sometimes it was just being insensitive and arrogant. Good thing I've outgrown all of that, eh? LOL
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Why didn't you use your free will to not say whatever it was you regretted? :)
 
ZenMode said:
Why didn't you use your free will to not say whatever it was you regretted? :)
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Free Will is tied to reason, not emotional outbursts.

Animals don't have free will. They react to their instincts and experiences. Being trained by a human comes under "experiences". Do you believe human beings are just a smarter animal? A super chimp reacting to their instincts and experiences, Mode?

Or do you believe as I do that our reasoning minds give us a choice?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Free Will is tied to reason, not emotional outbursts.
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Right, so why not use your free will to avoid saying/doing things you know are not ok?
Animals don't have free will.
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We are animals.
They react to their instincts and experiences. Being trained by a human comes under "experiences". Do you believe human beings are just a smarter animal? A super chimp reacting to their instincts and experiences, Mode?

Or do you believe as I do that our reasoning minds give us a choice?
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Animals, like humans, are trained (beyond anything contributed by genes) by their life experiences. Non-human animals also reason, they just don't do with via complex language like human animals do. We aren't born knowing right from wrong. We learn over our life time. That learning is what what creates our brain structure. Our brain structure is what determines our thoughts. A kid growing up in a gang-infested part of the ghetto will have a life experience that creates a much different brain structure than you and I.... assuming you didn't grow up in the ghetto.
 
ZenMode said:
Right, so why not use your free will to avoid saying/doing things you know are not ok? We are animals.

Animals, like humans, are trained (beyond anything contributed by genes) by their life experiences. Non-human animals also reason, they just don't do with via complex language like human animals do. We aren't born knowing right from wrong. We learn over our life time. That learning is what what creates our brain structure. Our brain structure is what determines our thoughts. A kid growing up in a gang-infested part of the ghetto will have a life experience that creates a much different brain structure than you and I.... assuming you didn't grow up in the ghetto.
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People can be irrational, overly emotional or mentally ill. Your claim to be so is noted. :thup:
 
Doc Dutch said:
People can be irrational, overly emotional or mentally ill. Your claim to be so is noted. :thup:
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Mental illness is something totally different. All bets are off in the event of mental illness.

How can people be irrational if they have free will, which would allow them to control their thoughts and therefore their actions?
 
ZenMode said:
Mental illness is something totally different. All bets are off in the event of mental illness.

How can people be irrational if they have free will, which would allow them to control their thoughts and therefore their actions?
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Agreed on mental illness. Genetic defects can come into play too. Mental illness can be temporary or prolonged, if not permanent like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Because people are not as homogenous as you believe; they are multi-faceted. Our consciousness, our ability to reason is only one facet. People who are highly rational and/or highly disciplined in reason can use those abilities to control the other facets. Mainly impulses. People who reason have Free Will. People who are irrational don't have Free Will.

Thoughts are impulses. It's what you choose to do with those thoughts that is Free Will. If you want to murder someone or rob a liquor store and then claim "The Devil made me do it", that's either mental illness or lying. Having the thought isn't controllable, but your actions are fully controllable given you are a reasoning person.
 
ZenMode said:
It's true that minds wander. In other words, we can be easily distracted by the constant steam of thoughts that our brain pushes into consciousness. We've all been trying to work, but find ourselves distracted by thoughts of an argument with our spouse or kids, important things we have to do after work, etc.

As far as my paragraphs go, part of the brain sculpting, that has happened for both of us, is an understanding of the English language and structuring of written thought. Consider this.....if you truly control your thoughts, are you able to use your free will to not understand something that you do understand like the English language? Are you free to want something you don't want? Do you want to learn to play the violin or learn to speak Portuguese? If not, can you use your free will to want to learn both?
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I do not think I have been discussing free will. I consider it to be a very vague and incoherent concept.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed on mental illness. Genetic defects can come into play too. Mental illness can be temporary or prolonged, if not permanent like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Because people are not as homogenous as you believe; they are multi-faceted. Our consciousness, our ability to reason is only one facet. People who are highly rational and/or highly disciplined in reason can use those abilities to control the other facets. Mainly impulses. People who reason have Free Will. People who are irrational don't have Free Will.

Thoughts are impulses. It's what you choose to do with those thoughts that is Free Will. If you want to murder someone or rob a liquor store and then claim "The Devil made me do it", that's either mental illness or lying. Having the thought isn't controllable, but your actions are fully controllable given you are a reasoning person.
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I'd probably agree that thoughts can be viewed as impulses, to a degree. If you have a thought/impulse to rob a liquor store, what is it, or what process occurs, that determines if you act on that thought/impulse?
 
If you say that everything is physical, then nothing is not physical. What has been accomplished? You just have a metaphysic of saying something that can never be proven.
 
ZenMode said:
I'd probably agree that thoughts can be viewed as impulses, to a degree.

If you have a thought/impulse to rob a liquor store, what is it, or what process occurs, that determines if you act on that thought/impulse?
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What else would a thought be except a form of impulse? Magic? Thoughts come from your subconscious. You can't control their rising to the level of consciousness, but a normal, rational person certainly has control over what to do with the thought be it killing an asshole boss, going to night classes or asking someone out on a date.

Your forebrain, your consciousness determines what you do with thoughts.

https://www.britannica.com/science/forebrain
The forebrain plays a central role in the processing of information related to complex cognitive activities, sensory and associative functions, and voluntary motor activities. It represents one of the three major developmental divisions of the brain; the other two are the midbrain and hindbrain.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201507/5-reasons-we-act-impulsively
5 Reasons We Act Impulsively
... and how to build willpower so we don't do it again.
These are the five key factors that can temporarily weaken willpower and lead to impulsive reactions:

  1. Ego depletion. Making a series of decisions that involve conflict—trying to impress others, responding kindly to rude behavior, or planning a wedding—leads to ego depletion, and ego depletion leads to a loss of motivation. Thus, at the end of a long day, people have fewer resources to overcome the urge to consume a tempting snack than at the beginning of the day. This explains why most diets are broken at night!
  2. Busyness (cognitive load). The busier people are, the more likely they will behave impulsively. In a moment of stress, we often forget the names of people we know well. When our mind is preoccupied, our short-term mind guides our choices. This insight suggests that shoppers distracted by music or displays will be more likely to increase their impulse purchases. In contrast, being deliberate allows one to see the overall context and be less concerned with sensation.
  3. Stress. Coping with stress involves using willpower to control behavior. Daily stress can cripple the prefrontal cortex, the brain’s executive function that moderates concentration, planning, decision-making, and judgment. As a result, we lose the ability to be reflective, and begin to function on automatic default. For example, even with the best preparation, the pressure and anxiety of a lengthy exam (or interview) often causes test takers’ reasoning abilities to slow or even shut down entirely. This experience is known as blanking out, or choking under pressure.
  4. Alcohol. Intoxication reduces your resistance to temptation and weakens inhibitory control. Intoxication reduces self-awareness and narrows the scope of attention, limiting the ability to attend to multiple cues. As drinkers’ awareness declines, they lose self-control, so they eat more or smoke more as well.
  5. Blood sugar. Glucose is a vital part of willpower: Evidence shows that exerting willpower lowers blood sugar, which reduces the capacity for further self-control. Brains are energy hogs. Your brain uses about 20 percent of the energy your body consumes. Ironically, caloric restriction in dieting produces lower glucose, which undermines the willpower needed to resist food intake. The glucose itself doesn’t enter the brain, but it’s converted into neurotransmitters like serotonin. A lack of neurotransmitters increases impulsivity. For example, people with hypoglycemia, the tendency to have low blood sugar, are more likely to have trouble concentrating and controlling their negative emotions when provoked. Evidence suggests that schoolchildren who skip breakfast perform worse on tests—but will do better after a snack.
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Doc Dutch said:
What else would a thought be except a form of impulse? Magic? Thoughts come from your subconscious. You can't control their rising to the level of consciousness, but a normal, rational person certainly has control over what to do with the thought be it killing an asshole boss, going to night classes or asking someone out on a date.

Your forebrain, your consciousness determines what you do with thoughts.

https://www.britannica.com/science/forebrain


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201507/5-reasons-we-act-impulsively
5 Reasons We Act Impulsively
... and how to build willpower so we don't do it again.
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I don't think I was clear in what I was asking. Let's say you're in a situation where robbing a liquor store, bank, cornerstore, etc seems like a legitimate possibility to resolve your current financial struggles. So,you're frustrated because you have no money and you think "I need money! I need to eat and feed my family. What can I do to make some money right now?? Maybe I could rob a liquor store."

From that point on, what's the process that occurs that eventually leads to you make the choice to rob or not rob a store?
 
ZenMode said:
I don't think I was clear in what I was asking. Let's say you're in a situation where robbing a liquor store, bank, cornerstore, etc seems like a legitimate possibility to resolve your current financial struggles. So,you're frustrated because you have no money and you think "I need money! I need to eat and feed my family. What can I do to make some money right now?? Maybe I could rob a liquor store."

From that point on, what's the process that occurs that eventually leads to you make the choice to rob or not rob a store?
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The individual choice of the person. Free Will.
 
ZenMode said:
What is the process of getting to a decision or choice?
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You tell me. You had a choice of formulating the question, going on a date or going into the bathroom and jerking off...among other things.

How did you formulate your choice? Just biochemical programming?
 
Doc Dutch said:
You tell me. You had a choice of formulating the question, going on a date or going into the bathroom and jerking off...among other things.

How did you formulate your choice? Just biochemical programming?
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If you are trying to decide if you should rob a store, what are you doing to decide yes or no?
 
ZenMode said:
If you are trying to decide if you should rob a store, what are you doing to decide yes or no?
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Me personally? I'd aim higher. Robbing stores for a few hundred bucks is chump change. Only the mentally deficient would do so.
 
Doc Dutch said:
You tell me. You had a choice of formulating the question, going on a date or going into the bathroom and jerking off...among other things.

How did you formulate your choice? Just biochemical programming?
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Are you considering the risks of robbing a store? Are you considering the law and possible consequences if you are caught?
 
ZenMode said:
Are you considering the risks of robbing a store? Are you considering the law and possible consequences if you are caught?
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Yes. Specifically risk/benefit analysis. All of the above. A few hundred bucks isn't worth the risk to me, but a meat robot might think differently. They're pretty stupid.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Yes. Specifically risk/benefit analysis. All of the above. A few hundred bucks isn't worth the risk to me, but a meat robot might think differently. They're pretty stupid.
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At the point that you had the thoughts to Rob a store, could you have prevented that thought from arising in your consciousness?
 
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