The Gospel of Thomas

Perry Phimosis said:
I am a firm believer that we are nothing more than "emergent properties" that arise in a complex mix of chemistry and physics of our brains.

If there is a "soul" or an "essence" it is nothing more than the summation of our memories and our normal neural network functioning.

If there is something BEYOND this, something that borders on the supernatural there is really no way to confirm that. If you look at the animal kingdom completely you see a distribution of "self-awareness" and "personality" in animals. Do they all have "souls"? Most religions deny that animals have a "soul" so for me that is an indicator that "soul" is just humans' hope that there is something ineffable about themselves that survives death or destruction.

Only problem with that is: there is no evidence of any soul or essence existing without a physical functioning brain. But we have a HUGE amount of evidence of a physical brain being damaged and the resulting "essence" of the person changing dramatically. Like the story of Phineas Gage.
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I don't necessarily subscribe to the philosophy of a Platonic soul or a Christian afterlife. In the Socratic tradition, I think it's important to ask questions and test the limits of our knowledge.

I can appreciate your post, but here is my two cents.

'Emergent properties' is just a polite way for saying we don't have a bloody clue. We don't understand how conciousness emerges from cells, we don't know where the laws of physics and the universal constants come from, and we don't know what caused the origin of reality and the cosmos.

When you really think about it, advancements in scientific knowledge has really only been at the margins of human experience. And I say that as a scientist myself. Our aquisition of scientific knowledge has benefited us technologically and filled in the blanks about the natural world.

But on a day to day basis, it is an insignificant part of the human phenomenological experience. General relativity, quantum mechanics, and particle physics have very little to do with our phenomenological experience. A genuine human life generally revolves around metaphysical issues of truth, beauty, fairness, justice, freedom, equality, aka things that are beyond the reach of the laws of physics and chemistry.
 
Cypress said:
A genuine human life generally revolves around issues of truth, beauty, fairness, justice, equality, aka things that are beyond the reach of the laws of physics and chemistry.
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This is the part I disagree with. All those things like "beauty", "fairness", "justice", those are all human constructs and certainly in the case of "beauty" is little more than that which stimulates the pleasure centers in our brains. For instance I can find beauty in something you might be repelled by and vice versa.

"Fairness and Justice" are fantastic concepts, but still predicated on human behaviors and societally agreed upon outcomes. In the animal world there is often little "fairness" in that things just happen as they happen and animals adapt. With humans we are somewhat more able to infer the emotional and intellectual state of another "mind" (theory of "mind") so we are able to conceive of more or less "fair" or "just" outcomes.

I'm not saying the human brain isn't amazing or unique, but it is part of a "continuum" of consciousness that starts at about zero with a single cell bacterium all the way up through mammalian brains in chimps and bonobos up to humans.

If it is a continuum then there MUST be "souls" for animals. If we are somehow a quantum state separate from animals it is strange that we share all other aspects of biology with them.

I find most people who advocate for the existence of a "soul" have more difficulty in assigning a "soul" to, say, a snake or an iquana.
 
Cypress said:
Well I respect that, but I know of no physical laws or chemical laws of the universe that compel justice, equality, fairness, a belief in beauty.

I've never had a dog or cat that showed appreciation for a painting or a beautiful sunset.

Anyone who has been around self-centered three year olds knows that fairness and equality are not concepts that are natural and innate to them


None of this proves or disproves anything about an Abrahamic God, The Dao, or any divine spirits.

What I am saying is that I think we are kidding ourselves if we think everything about the human experience can be explained by laws of chemistry, physics, or mathmatical equations.
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My three year old displayed a desire for fairness and equality

He could talk in full sentences at two years old


It blew people away

It was in him to emerge

I treated him as a fully understanding being from his birth

Talked to as if he understood

Discussed things with him honestly as if he was a fully functioning ration being with and innate understanding of what morality was


I do much the same with animals

I treat them with dignity as if they understand me

They are so much more than what people think


I speak to my dogs in full sentences

They can tell the difference of people talking to each other and then talking to the dogs like they are only able to understand a word or two

I speak to them in a way that demonstrates to them that I perceive them as intelligent

I can perceive the understanding in their eyes and praise them for their intelligence

I found a little dog on the street this summer (I discussed it here)

The vet said he’s 12 - 14 years old


He got right with that program and responds just like my other dogs

Animals LOVE me for it


Dogs, cats, horses, birds….. whatever


That dignity and compassion is in all of them


The safe environment for that part of a functioning brain to display its self is created



It’s manifests it’s self


It’s in the brain structure of all animals that benefit from living in groups


It’s part of self preservation


To me that makes it NO LESS beautiful

The magic thinking of having the unknown be more beautiful than things we understand emerges from the part of our brain that seeks answers


It gives the brain a reason to ponder on the unknown because we find it intriguing

It helps us seek answers


For some reason the known things are just as beautiful to me


Knowing why is heaven to me

All the heaven dreaming of mankind involves “then I will know why”


Knowing is heavenly


Heaven is knowing


Right here on earth


Man I love waxing philosophical
 
Perry Phimosis said:
This is the part I disagree with. All those things like "beauty", "fairness", "justice", those are all human constructs and certainly in the case of "beauty" is little more than that which stimulates the pleasure centers in our brains. For instance I can find beauty in something you might be repelled by and vice versa.

"Fairness and Justice" are fantastic concepts, but still predicated on human behaviors and societally agreed upon outcomes. In the animal world there is often little "fairness" in that things just happen as they happen and animals adapt. With humans we are somewhat more able to infer the emotional and intellectual state of another "mind" (theory of "mind") so we are able to conceive of more or less "fair" or "just" outcomes.

I'm not saying the human brain isn't amazing or unique, but it is part of a "continuum" of consciousness that starts at about zero with a single cell bacterium all the way up through mammalian brains in chimps and bonobos up to humans.

If it is a continuum then there MUST be "souls" for animals. If we are somehow a quantum state separate from animals it is strange that we share all other aspects of biology with them.

I find most people who advocate for the existence of a "soul" have more difficulty in assigning a "soul" to, say, a snake or an iquana.
Click to expand...

There is an element of subjectivity in all those metaphysical questions. But I look at thousands of years of human history, and I see a trajectory always bending towards more freedom, more justice, more truth, more fairness, even when deviations from the trajectory occur. That indicates to me that humans can percieve a universal moral and metaphysical framework which is perhaps unique to our species.

What we might call emergent properties is what I call something beyond physics and chemistry; something we may never really understand. I have never subscribed to a type of strict, reductive materialism.

I don't think humans hold a unique or privileged place in the cosmos. The higher, sentient animals have access to altruism, love, and compassion. But I have not the slightest clue what the phenomenological experience of a dolphin is, so I have no authority to frame it.
 
Cypress said:
There is an element of subjectivity in all those metaphysical questions. But I look at thousands of years of human history, and I see a trajectory always bending towards more freedom, more justice, more truth, more fairness, even when deviations from the trajectory occur. That indicates to me that humans can percieve a universal moral and metaphysical framework which is perhaps unique to our species.

What we might call emergent properties is what I call something beyond physics and chemistry; something we may never really understand. I have never subscribed to a type of strict, reductive materialism.

I don't think humans hold a unique or privileged place in the cosmos. The higher, sentient animals have access to altruism, love, and compassion. But I have not the slightest clue what the phenomenological experience of a dolphin is, so I have no authority to frame it.
Click to expand...

Whales and Dolphins are very intelligent

They do display compassion

A true sign of an intelligent being



Compassion demonstrates a property of seeking fairness and equality

Yet again they are animals that benefit from living in groups



I think what we believe is very similar and we just express it a little differently
 
Perry Phimosis said:
This is the part I disagree with. All those things like "beauty", "fairness", "justice", those are all human constructs and certainly in the case of "beauty" is little more than that which stimulates the pleasure centers in our brains. For instance I can find beauty in something you might be repelled by and vice versa.

"Fairness and Justice" are fantastic concepts, but still predicated on human behaviors and societally agreed upon outcomes. In the animal world there is often little "fairness" in that things just happen as they happen and animals adapt. With humans we are somewhat more able to infer the emotional and intellectual state of another "mind" (theory of "mind") so we are able to conceive of more or less "fair" or "just" outcomes.

I'm not saying the human brain isn't amazing or unique, but it is part of a "continuum" of consciousness that starts at about zero with a single cell bacterium all the way up through mammalian brains in chimps and bonobos up to humans.

If it is a continuum then there MUST be "souls" for animals. If we are somehow a quantum state separate from animals it is strange that we share all other aspects of biology with them.

I find most people who advocate for the existence of a "soul" have more difficulty in assigning a "soul" to, say, a snake or an iquana.
Click to expand...

If heaven existed and I arrived there and my pets throughout life were not there?



Heaven wouldn’t be heaven for me
 
Perry Phimosis said:
I am a firm believer that we are nothing more than "emergent properties" that arise in a complex mix of chemistry and physics of our brains.

If there is a "soul" or an "essence" it is nothing more than the summation of our memories and our normal neural network functioning.

If there is something BEYOND this, something that borders on the supernatural there is really no way to confirm that. If you look at the animal kingdom completely you see a distribution of "self-awareness" and "personality" in animals. Do they all have "souls"? Most religions deny that animals have a "soul" so for me that is an indicator that "soul" is just humans' hope that there is something ineffable about themselves that survives death or destruction.

Only problem with that is: there is no evidence of any soul or essence existing without a physical functioning brain. But we have a HUGE amount of evidence of a physical brain being damaged and the resulting "essence" of the person changing dramatically. Like the story of Phineas Gage.
Click to expand...



Energy can’t be destroyed


It can only be transformed


If afterlife exists


It’s a transforming of the energy created by your existence

That means my loving critters will be transformed too
 
evince said:
If heaven existed and I arrived there and my pets throughout life were not there?

Heaven wouldn’t be heaven for me
Click to expand...
I expect it's all on the same plane of existence, just like all water eventually ends up in the oceans...before possibly leaving again.

Only a fucking asshole would make it separate. :)
 
evince said:
Whales and Dolphins are very intelligent

They do display compassion

A true sign of an intelligent being



Compassion demonstrates a property of seeking fairness and equality

Yet again they are animals that benefit from living in groups



I think what we believe is very similar and we just express it a little differently
Click to expand...

That's getting back to the mystery of conciousness and our phenomenological experience.

There are no known laws of the universe that necessitate or mandate freedom, fairness, equality, standards of aesthetic beauty and truth.

To me, that is the miraculous thing -- that we are even here to ask the questions. The universe itself doesn't care about freedom, justice, or equality.
 
It sure doesn’t comport with everything else we observe about our reality if they are not there


It’s a system and everything is a part of the system and interacts with the same effects being contacted in that system



My hairy babies are going the same place I am going after death
 
Cypress said:
That's getting back to the mystery of conciousness and our phenomenological experience.

There are no known laws of the universe that necessitate or mandate freedom, fairness, equality, standards of aesthetic beauty and truth.

To me, that is the miraculous thing -- that we are even here to ask the questions. The universe itself doesn't care about freedom, justice, or equality.
Click to expand...



The universe contains us

We manifest it


We are part of the universe


So yes


The universe cares about fairness and equality


Sweet huh


Mankind can be so beautiful

If we choose it to be
 
evince said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake



I was reading about this this morning


A massive historical earthquake in Lisbon in the mid 1700s



It sparked the Age of Enlightenment



What a fascinating subject
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Mankind stepped beyond church knowledge to attempt to understand how to rebuild a destroyed city


The man placed in charge of rebuilding sent out a massive questionnaire to all the victims left alive

He asked them to describe what they experienced before, during and after the quake


Then poured over the results to try and understand how to rebuild to survive another quake
 
evince said:
The universe contains us

We manifest it


We are part of the universe


So yes


The universe cares about fairness and equality


Sweet huh


Mankind can be so beautiful

If we choose it to be
Click to expand...

The argument could be made that the natural state of humans was what existed in the empires of antiquity, the Middle Ages, the classical world: inequity, heirarchy, feudalism.

Inequality and heirarchy seemed perfectly natural to almost all humans who existed before us. Before Socates, there's no indication that the fundamental nature of truth was of concern to humans.

If there was a scientific law for freedom, justice, and equality somebody should be able to identify it.

Altruism for the pack and love for offspring comes naturally to sentient animals, that of course seems to have a clear evolutionary origin.

I think humans had to use reason, dialectic, and rationality to identify and access those categorical moral imperatives that eluded us for thousands of years. There is nothing known about physics or evolutionary biology that explains it
 
Cypress said:
The argument could be made that the natural state of humans was what existed in the empires of antiquity, the Middle Ages, the classical world: inequity, heirarchy, feudalism.

Inequality and heirarchy seemed perfectly natural to almost all humans who existed before us. Before Socates, there's no indication that the fundamental nature of truth was of concern to humans.

If there was a scientific law for freedom, justice, and equality somebody should be able to identify it.

Altruism for the pack and love for offspring comes naturally to sentient animals, that of course seems to have a clear evolutionary origin.

I think humans had to use reason, dialectic, and rationality to identify and access those categorical moral imperatives that eluded us for thousands of years. There is nothing known about physics or evolutionary biology that explains it
Click to expand...

I bet there is more than you think


For one most of man’s history was not recorded


Small bands of humans working together as a small semi family unit to survive


Many of them may not have even met another band of humans that were ten not incorporated into the fold


Hairless

No claws


No sharp teeth


No venom to deploy


Seems we were not very well equipped for life in the wild


Cooperation formed our species for sure


An ever increasing brain case needed to deal with the complex emotions our fellow man displayed

Creating compassion in larger volumes

Increasing that larger brains ability to process information and creativity



Our intelligence increased hand in hand with our devotion to others



It’s as human to be emotional as it is to intelligent


There could not be one without the other
 
evince said:
I bet there is more than you think


For one most of man’s history was not recorded


Small bands of humans working together as a small semi family unit to survive


Many of them may not have even met another band of humans that were ten not incorporated into the fold


Hairless

No claws


No sharp teeth


No venom to deploy


Seems we were not very well equipped for life in the wild


Cooperation formed our species for sure


An ever increasing brain case needed to deal with the complex emotions our fellow man displayed

Creating compassion in larger volumes

Increasing that larger brains ability to process information and creativity



Our intelligence increased hand in hand with our devotion to others



It’s as human to be emotional as it is to intelligent


There could not be one without the other
Click to expand...

It's worth studying and talking about!

I don't see any relationship between intelligence and beauty, freedom, or equality.

The stupidest person can easily recognize the beauty in the Pieta.

Many dictators throughout history have been intelligent.

Some of the most brilliant people in history from Plato to Aristotle to Confucius didn't believe in equality.


Nonetheless, that human metaphysical framework seems to have been embedded in our trajectory as a species.

It seems to me that our phenomenological experience with beauty, freedom, justice required more than intelligence and reason. Plato, Socrates, Hegel seemed to believe that there was an interplay between human reason and human spirit.
 
Now give us the scientific properties Of the human spirit?



There in lies the difference

It’s an energy of the mind that we do not yet understand


Lots of things we have yet to know all the properties to


There is a spark


Is it the result of physical brain function?


Likely


That does not mean it’s untransformable energy

A something after will have completely scientifically documentable properties


That is my belief


Based on what the pattern is of all mankind’s current knowledge
 
evince said:
Now give us the scientific properties Of the human spirit?



There in lies the difference

It’s an energy of the mind that we do not yet understand


Lots of things we have yet to know all the properties to


There is a spark


Is it the result of physical brain function?


Likely


That does not mean it’s untransformable energy

A something after will have completely scientifically documentable properties


That is my belief


Based on what the pattern is of all mankind’s current knowledge
Click to expand...



I'd hate to believe in a world where my mother or wife were just a collection of quarks and electrons behaving in a predetermined way on the basis of chemical laws and electrical impulses.

I don't know if there is a human spirit, but I also think there are questions and topics that are beyond the reach of this scientific method. And that's also what a lot of physicists believe too.

All of western philosophy is a legacy of the question Socrates asked 2500 years ago. What is justice and why do we desire it?
 
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