Theology Question

Cypress said:
I don't see theodicy as some massively huge metaphysical problem.

Humans have free will to choose righteousness or depravity

Most bad things that happen are a consequence free will. The only reason earthquakes are deadly is because humans have chosen to overpopulate and live in crowded cities. Most cancers are a result of us choosing to introduce synthetic chemicals and toxins into the environment. Death by flood is a consequence of choosing to live in flood plains.

A deity forcing us to be happy and secure requires taking away free will. And I am not sure if forced happiness is really something that even counts as happiness. Happiness is a state of euphoria, it doesn't say anything especially significant about the meaning and purpose of existence. Humans, almost uniquely among animals, seemed designed with a faculty for perfectibility, the desire and ability to improve one's condition
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Agreed on theodicy and free will.

A slight disagreement that everything that happens to us is a product of our free will. There's still a "wrong place, wrong time" factor, but people do have choices.

An example is the number of people killed by rogue waves.

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news...cle_227e9d79-d964-5103-90ef-ee8a94b3f542.html
Woman killed by rogue wave on Oregon beach was scattering late husband'
A woman and two of her grown sons, swept out to sea by a rogue wave along the Oregon coast, had gone to the shore to scatter the ashes of her late husband.

Pamela Flynn, 72, went to Agate Beach near Port Orford, Ore., to honor one of the last wishes of David Flynn, who died in August at the age of 75.

Her sons Thomas Flynn, 44, and Brian Flynn, 42, were with her when the wave -- locally called a "sneaker" wave -- struck the shore and washed them off the beach, according to the sheriff's office in Curry County, Ore.

Mrs. Flynn and her son Thomas drowned. Brian Flynn survived and was treated for hypothermia.

All were from Sagle, in north Idaho near Lake Pend Oreille.

A rogue waves is an unusually large wave. They occasionally catch people unaware along the coast.

"It's extremely difficult to get out of," said sheriff's Deputy Kim Wood.
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https://www.q13fox.com/news/woman-dies-after-being-hit-by-log-thrown-by-rogue-wave-at-pacific-beach
Woman dies after being hit by log thrown by rogue wave at Pacific Beach
An Oak Harbor woman died over the weekend when a rogue wave knocked her to the ground and pushed a log on top of her, according to the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Office.

The 54-year-old woman and her husband were walking on the beach close to Pacific Beach State Park on Sunday morning A large set of waves came in and the couple stood on top of a log to avoid the waves, according to the sheriff's office.

Then, a large wave came in and knocked both of them off the log and the log rolled over them, the sheriff's office said.

Deputies say the woman's husband suffered a serious leg injury and the woman initially had several areas of trauma.

She succumbed to her injuries on the way to the hospital.

When the couple was knocked over, those nearby rushed to their aid and brought them to dry land. One person performed CPR on the woman while waiting for emergency responders.
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https://www.dallasnews.com/news/201...r-swept-away-by-rogue-wave-in-cabo-san-lucas/
McKinney woman, twin sister swept away by 'rogue wave' in Cabo San Lucas
When the 67-year-old twins didn't return from the walk, their family went looking for them
Twin sisters were killed last month in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, when a massive wave hit them and carried them into the water.

Barbara Jo Thomas of McKinney and Beverly Ann Skripsky of Scottsdale, Ariz., were vacationing with their families in Cabo when, on Oct. 22, they were walking on the beach, pulled into the ocean by a "rogue wave" and drowned.
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Barbara Jo Thomas (right) of McKinney and Beverly Ann Skripsy of Scottsdale, Ariz. were killed when they were pulled into the ocean by a massive wave.(KXAS-TV (NBC5))
"My last memory was, 'Come with us and go on the walk,'" Steve Thomas, Barbara's husband, told WFAA-TV (Channel 8). "And I didn't go. I literally watched her walk out the door and she wanted me to go with her."

When the 67-year-old twins didn't return from the walk, the family went looking for them.

Thomas said he ended up running from one of the waves, which went from 5 feet to 20 feet in seconds.

"There are certain beaches there that are killer beaches," he said. "If you're out on the beach or in the ocean, you need to be very, very cautious of what's going on around you."

Days before the twin sisters were killed, an Illinois man died from a similar wave. Steven Urycki was fishing in Cabo San Lucas when he was hit by a wave. His brother-in-law tried to grab him, but Urycki was pulled into the ocean by the strong undertow, the Naperville Sun reported.
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BidenPresident said:
The one you talk about everyday here. You're not profound or original.
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It seems you start more threads about religion than I do, this was your thread, remember?

Cypress said:
I scanned the last 25 active threads which I started, and here's the breakdown -->

6 threads are on science
2 are on philosophers
1 on mathmatics
15 on politics, economics, or foreign policy

and 1 thread on religion, which was actually a thread mocking Christian fundamentalists.
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Doc Dutch said:
Agreed on theodicy and free will.

A slight disagreement that everything that happens to us is a product of our free will. There's still a "wrong place, wrong time" factor, but people do have choices.

An example is the number of people killed by rogue waves.

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news...cle_227e9d79-d964-5103-90ef-ee8a94b3f542.html
Woman killed by rogue wave on Oregon beach was scattering late husband'


https://www.q13fox.com/news/woman-dies-after-being-hit-by-log-thrown-by-rogue-wave-at-pacific-beach
Woman dies after being hit by log thrown by rogue wave at Pacific Beach


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/201...r-swept-away-by-rogue-wave-in-cabo-san-lucas/
McKinney woman, twin sister swept away by 'rogue wave' in Cabo San Lucas
When the 67-year-old twins didn't return from the walk, their family went looking for them
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I can't really see calling rogue waves an act of evil, though.

People die of accidents and natural causes, it seems like a stretch to conflate that with evil in the world
 
BidenPresident said:
Banning you from all my threads. Sick of your shit. Keeping you on ignore.
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Your choice, BP. However, the older you become, I hope you realize hiding your head in the sand won't protect you.

The old maxim is true: scientia potentia est. Knowledge is power.

People who deliberately keep themselves ignorant may think they are happier but, in reality, they are hiding from the world.
 
Cypress said:
I can't really see calling rogue waves an act of evil, though.

People die of accidents and natural causes, it seems like a stretch to conflate that with evil in the world
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Agreed. Rogue waves happen just like space rocks fall on planets.

The point being that, while walking on the beach was a matter of free will, it wasn't a matter of free will to get whacked by a rogue wave.

FWIW, I don't believe in evil as a force. I see it as an absence of goodness like darkness is an absence of light or cold is an absence of heat. Yes, there are malicious people, but that's their free will...or genetic defect. The Devil isn't making them do it. They are the ones who are responsible.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Rogue waves happen just like space rocks fall on planets.

The point being that, while walking on the beach was a matter of free will, it wasn't a matter of free will to get whacked by a rogue wave.

FWIW, I don't believe in evil as a force. I see it as an absence of goodness like darkness is an absence of light or cold is an absence of heat. Yes, there are malicious people, but that's their free will...or genetic defect. The Devil isn't making them do it. They are the ones who are responsible.
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For sure.

Death by accident is just part of life. I've never heard anyone say a diety should prevent all accidents and natural death.

A lot of disease, death, and infection are a result of the choices and actions of humanity. There may never have been COVID or avian flu if humans hadn't insisted on keeping domestic animals and wildlife in confined, overcrowded, inhumane, and unsanitary conditions.
 
Cypress said:
For sure.

Death by a accident is just part of life. I've never heard anyone say a diety should prevent all accidents and natural death.

A lot of disease, death, and infection are a result of the choices and actions of humanity. There may never have been COVID or avian flu if hadn't humans insisted in keeping domestic animals and wildlife in confined, overcrowded, inhumane, and unsanitary conditions.
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The atheists use it as their "proof" there is no God. BP isn't the first one to use that convoluted logic.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The atheists use it as their "proof" there is no God. BP isn't the first one to use that convoluted logic.
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I think there are a lot better reasons to choose not to have religion, than complaining God didn't stop an earthquake. I've never seen theodicy as some massively huge, intractable problem for metaphysics.
 
Cypress said:
I think there are a lot better reasons to choose not to have religion, than complaining God didn't stop an earthquake.

I've never seen theodicy as some massively huge, intractable problem for metaphysics.
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It goes to why I think atheists are "believers" even though they often whine they are "disbelieving". They are asserting something without evidence.

Agreed again on theodicy. It's just the atheists trying to prove they are correct.
 
Doc Dutch said:
It goes to why I think atheists are "believers" even though they often whine they are "disbelieving". They are asserting something without evidence.

Agreed again on theodicy. It's just the atheists trying to prove they are correct.
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Trying to prove or disprove God is something I leave to the fundamentalist holy rollers and the militant atheists.
 
Cypress said:
Trying to prove or disprove God is something I leave to the fundamentalist holy rollers and the militant atheists.
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Agreed 100%. There is zero evidence of anything beyond the natural universe, despite multiverse theories. Sure, one day there might be proof of alternative universes, but not at present.

Therefore, while theoretical discussions are fun, those who take them too seriously are deluding themselves and/or are idiots.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed 100%. There is zero evidence of anything beyond the natural universe, despite multiverse theories. Sure, one day there might be proof of alternative universes, but not at present.

Therefore, while theoretical discussions are fun, those who take them too seriously are deluding themselves and/or are idiots.
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For me it's fun to wander the territory between the two extreme claims that science provides universal and certain knowledge about everything -- or that faith provides absolute certainty about the meaning of life and the fate of the soul, the Qi, or the atman
 
NovoJank said:
LOL. You don't seem to know what words mean. I get it. You are only on here to play whatever it is you are playing at. I suppose for some people like you this is entertaining?
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Hey, asshole. You started by quoting Leibniz without a citation. Quit being a fucking troll.
 
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