Truce is over says Hamas...

[Kamala Trump]

And your initial point is still irrelevant. The "validity" of a palestinian identity is irrelevant to the argument.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

And your initial point is still irrelevant. The "validity" of a palestinian identity is irrelevant to the argument.

this from a guy who uses wiki to talk about the historical nature of the area....


The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism

~ Zahir Muhsein March 31, 1977, (Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member)

 

[Kamala Trump]

this from a guy who uses wiki to talk about the historical nature of the area....


The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism

~ Zahir Muhsein March 31, 1977, (Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member)

You already posted this didn't you?


This is irrelevant, because claims to land to not depend on being a "legitimate" people in the eyes of others. Individuals can form new bonds, and often do, through common experience. You seem to not understand this critique of your post.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

You already posted this didn't you?


This is irrelevant, because claims to land to not depend on being a "legitimate" people in the eyes of others. Individuals can form new bonds, and often do, through common experience. You seem to not understand this critique of your post.

it is about a legitimate claim...you just can't see how you are contradicting yourself and being hypocritical in your viewpoint.

 

[blackascoal]

You see, you were correct until the last paragraph. It is true that Jews and arabs have lived together for thousands of years and it is true that Israel was created with western goals in mind.

What is not true is your claims of Israeli imperialism. Go and look up the wars of the region. Arab states ganging up on one tiny Jewish state because the arab states around it dont much like Western influence. The only land Israel has taken is land that it took as war reparations from the wrongful wars waged upon it. Seriously, look up the wars of the '60s and '70s all the way to the scuffles with Lebanon and the Palestinians today.

Plus, I'd love for you to explain how Sharon's withdrawing from the Gaza Strip is part of Israeli Imperialism. That one'll be a doozy, though perhaps not as much as explaining how wars started by Egyptian and Syrian armies (as in, they initiated the conflict) were part of Israel's grand scheme of Imperialism.

If Israel is the most hated nation it is because of the anti semitic propaganda that forever rules this planet.

Before I answer your sound questions I want to address something that should have been trashed immediately ..

1947 UN Partition plan for Palestine. The plan gave the Jewish state 58% of Palestine's area despite the fact that Jews were only 30% of Palestine's population.

To your suggestion that Israeli imperialism does not exist .. should I post UN Resolutions that dispute that claim? There are in fact more UN Resolutions against Israel than any nation in history. .. AND althoiugh you may not see value in the UN, let me remind you that Israel itself is a state created by sanction.

I echo the thoughts of many jewish scholars and thinkers including Noam Chomsky who some would dismiss with the foolish label of "self-hate."

How about this ...

Golan Heights (1974-1999), After the October War 1973, Syria liberated some land in the Golan. This is how the Golan looks today, with many Israeli settlements built in it against all international laws and UN resolutions.

or this ...

A Last Chance at Middle East Peace?

President-elect Obama will be the last American president who has a chance to save the two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. If he does not achieve this goal during the first year of his presidency, the two-state "horizon" that George W. Bush pursued so ineptly is likely to disappear for good. But even a quick engagement by the new president will fare no better than previous US peace initiatives--all of which have gotten nowhere--if Obama and his advisers approach the task believing that some more "peace processing" or "confidence-building measures" will achieve the goal.

The Israel-Palestine conflict has defied US "facilitation" over these many years not because of procedural shortcomings or a paucity of ideas. The terms of a workable agreement--formulated in the so-called Clinton Parameters of December 2000 and elaborated in the Taba discussions that followed in January 2001--are well known and enjoy near-universal support. They call for minor rectifications in the 1949 armistice line (which served as Israel's pre-1967 border) in order to allow Israel to retain a cluster of nearby settlements based on an agreed equal exchange of territory on both sides of the border; a capital for the new Palestinian state in Arab East Jerusalem; a limited return of Palestinian refugees to their former homes in Israel in agreed numbers that do not significantly alter Israel's ethnic and religious balance; a nonmilitarized Palestinian state that addresses Israeli security concerns while respecting Palestinian sovereignty; and a US-led international force that would ensure security and assist with Palestinian nation-building for a transitional period.

What has been missing is the political will to get the parties to act on these parameters--a political and moral failure that has doomed all previous efforts. This failure has not been the result of ignorance but of cowardice--a willful disregard by Israel and successive American administrations, as well as by much of the international community, of certain unchanging fundamentals that underlie this conflict. Peace initiatives that ignore these fundamentals and seek an agreement on the cheap cannot succeed.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/siegman?rel=hp_currently

Who is this "self-hating" jew?

Henry Siegman, director of the U.S./Middle East Project in New York, is a visiting research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Program, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. He is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America.

It would be mindless to claim this man is "self-hating" as it is mindless to suggest the same of people like Chomsky.

Israel bears much of the blame for the tensions in the ME and the atrocities of Jenin and Lebanon are proof.

"Anti-semitism" .. the misnomer .. is nothing but cover and censorship that helps keep America locked into failure.

 

[Famov]

Before I answer your sound questions I want to address something that should have been trashed immediately ..

1947 UN Partition plan for Palestine. The plan gave the Jewish state 58% of Palestine's area despite the fact that Jews were only 30% of Palestine's population.

To your suggestion that Israeli imperialism does not exist .. should I post UN Resolutions that dispute that claim? There are in fact more UN Resolutions against Israel than any nation in history. .. AND althoiugh you may not see value in the UN, let me remind you that Israel itself is a state created by sanction.

I echo the thoughts of many jewish scholars and thinkers including Noam Chomsky who some would dismiss with the foolish label of "self-hate."

How about this ...

Golan Heights (1974-1999), After the October War 1973, Syria liberated some land in the Golan. This is how the Golan looks today, with many Israeli settlements built in it against all international laws and UN resolutions.

or this ...

A Last Chance at Middle East Peace?

President-elect Obama will be the last American president who has a chance to save the two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. If he does not achieve this goal during the first year of his presidency, the two-state "horizon" that George W. Bush pursued so ineptly is likely to disappear for good. But even a quick engagement by the new president will fare no better than previous US peace initiatives--all of which have gotten nowhere--if Obama and his advisers approach the task believing that some more "peace processing" or "confidence-building measures" will achieve the goal.

The Israel-Palestine conflict has defied US "facilitation" over these many years not because of procedural shortcomings or a paucity of ideas. The terms of a workable agreement--formulated in the so-called Clinton Parameters of December 2000 and elaborated in the Taba discussions that followed in January 2001--are well known and enjoy near-universal support. They call for minor rectifications in the 1949 armistice line (which served as Israel's pre-1967 border) in order to allow Israel to retain a cluster of nearby settlements based on an agreed equal exchange of territory on both sides of the border; a capital for the new Palestinian state in Arab East Jerusalem; a limited return of Palestinian refugees to their former homes in Israel in agreed numbers that do not significantly alter Israel's ethnic and religious balance; a nonmilitarized Palestinian state that addresses Israeli security concerns while respecting Palestinian sovereignty; and a US-led international force that would ensure security and assist with Palestinian nation-building for a transitional period.

What has been missing is the political will to get the parties to act on these parameters--a political and moral failure that has doomed all previous efforts. This failure has not been the result of ignorance but of cowardice--a willful disregard by Israel and successive American administrations, as well as by much of the international community, of certain unchanging fundamentals that underlie this conflict. Peace initiatives that ignore these fundamentals and seek an agreement on the cheap cannot succeed.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/siegman?rel=hp_currently

Who is this "self-hating" jew?

Henry Siegman, director of the U.S./Middle East Project in New York, is a visiting research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Program, School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. He is a former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America.

It would be mindless to claim this man is "self-hating" as it is mindless to suggest the same of people like Chomsky.

Israel bears much of the blame for the tensions in the ME and the atrocities of Jenin and Lebanon are proof.

"Anti-semitism" .. the misnomer .. is nothing but cover and censorship that helps keep America locked into failure.

I never said anything about 'self hating' Jews, so I do not know why you have. I would not insinuate such, nor would I assume that a Jewish person's critical opinion on Israel is any more valid simply because they are Jewish. (Though it almost seems that you are implying the latter.)

UN resolutions? Perhaps if they were to be used as legitimate evidence for anything, you would have already posted them. But regardless, your maps do nothing to prove that Israel is imperialistic. It only shows that the western powers created it with western goals in mind. Which I already said was true.

First off? The October war was started by Syria and Egypt. As far as I'm concerned Israel could've taken control of the entirety of both countries and been completely in the right. When you initiate a war and lose, the land taken as reparations is justified. Certainly you wouldn't claim otherwise? Do you claim that Egypt and Syria were justified in starting the war to begin with, and starting on a Jewish holiday no less?

And this Siegmann fellow? How does this prove Israeli imperialism? He's just giving his opinion that's not grounded in anything more than three short paragraphs could provide. Rhetoric =/= Evidence

You speak of atrocities and ignore the basic political fundamental truths that have concerned Israel and the Middle East for the last sixty some years: The bulk of the conflicts have been initiated by Israel's neighbors. The true tragedy is Europe's abject failure at giving the necessary support to Israel that it needs to survive, for if it were not for the United States we would now see a persecuted Jewish people in a situation that would make the current state of the Palestinians seem trivial.

And when I speak of the current state of the Palestinians, I speak of how terrorists like Arafat used and abused his people. There's no doubt that the Palestinians in Israel have it far better than those being brainwashed by fundamentaist Muslims.

You talk a good game, but history is not on your side.

 

[Socrtease]

Once upon a time when there were two big bad asses that lived on opposite ends the block, Israel was important as were the Muslim states that surrounded them. Then one of the bad asses stumbled and fell and left only one bad ass in the hood. Israel has since lost its importance. As I have said several times before, they are a full fledged country, they are 60 whole years old and have their own army navy and airforce. Good luck to them, write and tell us how things are going, send us a postcard every now and again. We are out.

 

[Kamala Trump]

it is about a legitimate claim...you just can't see how you are contradicting yourself and being hypocritical in your viewpoint.

It's about an irrelevant claim. People don't have to be racially pedigreed and considered a 'legitimate social group' to have rights. So it doesn't matter if paltestinians are "real". Do you get it yet?

 

[Kamala Trump]

I never said anything about 'self hating' Jews, so I do not know why you have. I would not insinuate such, nor would I assume that a Jewish person's critical opinion on Israel is any more valid simply because they are Jewish. (Though it almost seems that you are implying the latter.)

UN resolutions? Perhaps if they were to be used as legitimate evidence for anything, you would have already posted them. But regardless, your maps do nothing to prove that Israel is imperialistic. It only shows that the western powers created it with western goals in mind. Which I already said was true.

First off? The October war was started by Syria and Egypt. As far as I'm concerned Israel could've taken control of the entirety of both countries and been completely in the right. When you initiate a war and lose, the land taken as reparations is justified. Certainly you wouldn't claim otherwise? Do you claim that Egypt and Syria were justified in starting the war to begin with, and starting on a Jewish holiday no less?

And this Siegmann fellow? How does this prove Israeli imperialism? He's just giving his opinion that's not grounded in anything more than three short paragraphs could provide. Rhetoric =/= Evidence

You speak of atrocities and ignore the basic political fundamental truths that have concerned Israel and the Middle East for the last sixty some years: The bulk of the conflicts have been initiated by Israel's neighbors. The true tragedy is Europe's abject failure at giving the necessary support to Israel that it needs to survive, for if it were not for the United States we would now see a persecuted Jewish people in a situation that would make the current state of the Palestinians seem trivial.

And when I speak of the current state of the Palestinians, I speak of how terrorists like Arafat used and abused his people. There's no doubt that the Palestinians in Israel have it far better than those being brainwashed by fundamentaist Muslims.

You talk a good game, but history is not on your side.

I think you're missing the big picture. Basically the jews muscled their way into some land some other jews allegedly had a long time ago.

You know what else is made up? The entire jewish religion and claims of being god's favorites.

I could act like an asshole too and say it was god's will. But I'm cooler than that.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

It's about an irrelevant claim. People don't have to be racially pedigreed and considered a 'legitimate social group' to have rights. So it doesn't matter if paltestinians are "real". Do you get it yet?

right....tell them that, they will tell you that you are wrong....you keep ingoring the words of PLO guy i quoted for you twice...i don't care if you want keep your opinion, but it is not fact and the quote/unquote palestinians do not agree with you.

 

[maineman]

right....tell them that, they will tell you that you are wrong....you keep ingoring the words of PLO guy i quoted for you twice...i don't care if you want keep your opinion, but it is not fact and the quote/unquote palestinians do not agree with you.

all you have shown is that ONE palestinian did not agree with him at one point in the past.

 

[Kamala Trump]

right....tell them that, they will tell you that you are wrong....you keep ingoring the words of PLO guy i quoted for you twice...i don't care if you want keep your opinion, but it is not fact and the quote/unquote palestinians do not agree with you.

no. They would probably say that according to the way identity politics is played today, they had to create a "people" to garner and focus public opinion and create a "side". That's basically what the quote says.


But the fact of the matter is that the it's not necessary to be a "people" to have rights. So even if an identity was CREATED to play the game of identity politics, it's unfortunate it was necessary, and does not necessarily invalidate their right to exist.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

all you have shown is that ONE palestinian did not agree with him at one point in the past.

and you haven't shown anything....next

 

[Famov]

I think you're missing the big picture. Basically the jews muscled their way into some land some other jews allegedly had a long time ago.

You know what else is made up? The entire jewish religion and claims of being god's favorites.

I could act like an asshole too and say it was god's will. But I'm cooler than that.

Uh, no, you and blackascoal are missing the point. The point is that we created a sovereign state because we wanted a construction sympathetic to western sensibilities. Whether or not that was good or bad wasn't part of this discussion. But either way, all the Jews had to do with it is that the Europeans could finally get rid of them since they hated them so much.

And lets face it, the American government wanted as few refugees as possible. You'll always have those ultra nationalist folks to oppose any sort of immigration.

We ('we' as in US and Britain) muscled our way in and smuggled a people over there and put them in power of a previously largely ungoverned land mass. Then the arabs saw our intent and went on devising ways of destroying Israel. With the backing of the US though, all of their efforts have failed, and they will continue to fail. Starting an unjustified war is bad enough; starting an unjustified war that you cannot win is just foolishness, and Israel is almost wholly in the right concerning nearly every conflict they have been involved in.

The Jewish religion is made up? Well, yeah I guess, just like every other religion. Why that deserved mention is unknown to me.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Uh, no, you and blackascoal are missing the point. The point is that we created a sovereign state because we wanted a construction sympathetic to western sensibilities. Whether or not that was good or bad wasn't part of this discussion. But either way, all the Jews had to do with it is that the Europeans could finally get rid of them since they hated them so much.

And lets face it, the American government wanted as few refugees as possible. You'll always have those ultra nationalist folks to oppose any sort of immigration.

We ('we' as in US and Britain) muscled our way in and smuggled a people over there and put them in power of a previously largely ungoverned land mass. Then the arabs saw our intent and went on devising ways of destroying Israel. With the backing of the US though, all of their efforts have failed, and they will continue to fail. Starting an unjustified war is bad enough; starting an unjustified war that you cannot win is just foolishness, and Israel is almost wholly in the right concerning nearly every conflict they have been involved in.

The Jewish religion is made up? Well, yeah I guess, just like every other religion. Why that deserved mention is unknown to me.

so really, the jews don't deserve the land...

 

[Kamala Trump]

Uh, no, you and blackascoal are missing the point. The point is that we created a sovereign state because we wanted a construction sympathetic to western sensibilities.

That's part of it. I also think some zionists want a nationa controlled by jews. It's a one hand washes the other scenario.

Whether or not that was good or bad wasn't part of this discussion. But either way, all the Jews had to do with it is that the Europeans could finally get rid of them since they hated them so much.

I understand this is your revisionist lie of a position.

And lets face it, the American government wanted as few refugees as possible. You'll always have those ultra nationalist folks to oppose any sort of immigration.

Unwanted immigration = invasion.

We ('we' as in US and Britain) muscled our way in and smuggled a people over there and put them in power of a previously largely ungoverned land mass. Then the arabs saw our intent and went on devising ways of destroying Israel. With the backing of the US though, all of their efforts have failed, and they will continue to fail. Starting an unjustified war is bad enough; starting an unjustified war that you cannot win is just foolishness, and Israel is almost wholly in the right concerning nearly every conflict they have been involved in.

The Jewish religion is made up? Well, yeah I guess, just like every other religion. Why that deserved mention is unknown to me.

I mention it because so many insane theocrats consider it fulfillment of god's will to die for Jewish control of the area.

 

[Kamala Trump]

The word "Zionism" has several different meanings:
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm
1. An ideology - Zionist ideology holds that the Jews are a people or nation like any other, and should gather together in a single homeland. Zionism was self-consciously the Jewish analogue of Italian and German national liberation movements of the nineteenth century. The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology, but it was used retroactively to describe earlier efforts and ideas to return the Jews to their homeland for whatever reasons, and it is applied to Evangelical Christians who want people of the Jewish religion to return to Israel in order to hasten the second coming. "Christian Zionism" is also used to describe any Christian support for Israel.

2. A descriptive term - The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology. It is also used to describe anyone who believes Jews should return to their ancient homeland.

3. A political movement - The Zionist movement was founded by Theodor Herzl in 1897, incorporating the ideas of early thinkers as well as the organization built by Hovevei Tziyon ("lovers of Zion").

 

[Minister of Truth]

when I was in Israel, I was befriended by a great Israeli patriot...the woman who called the King David Hotel a half hour before Irgun blew it up. When she was a young sabra growing up in the Galillee, her father was a farmer whose neighbor was an arab farmer. For years, the two men would help one another at harvest time... their children would play together... then, England departed their protectorate and the pan arab army was massing on the borders of Palestine ready to sweep in and drive the Jews into the Mediterranean. My friend's father's arab neighbor came to him and told him, no hard feelings, but he was going to leave his farm for a few weeks at the request of the arab leaders and he was going to take his family to Damascus for a few weeks while the pan arab army swept the jews into the Mediterranean and then, he would come back from Damascus and claim my friend's father's farm as his own.... no hard feelings...

As it turned out, the pan arab army was crushed by the Israeli Defense Force and my friend's father's neighbor and his family lived out their lives in a refugee camp on the outskirts of Damascus... and my friend's father annexed the arab neighbor's farm and farmed it productively until the day he died.

When I asked my friend to explain the palestinian problem to me, she said, "Palestinian problem? They fought a war...they lost.... no problem"

This response is for anyone on the board.

My political science professor, Dr. Langill, who is an avid supporter of the Palestinians, claimed that there never was a command or radio broadcasts for the Palestinians to leave the land in 1948 so the war could commence. He said there was no evidence of it and the the Israelis simply made it up.

Anyone know anything about that, because your story supports what I have always heard...

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

when I was in Israel, I was befriended by a great Israeli patriot...the woman who called the King David Hotel a half hour before Irgun blew it up. When she was a young sabra growing up in the Galillee, her father was a farmer whose neighbor was an arab farmer. For years, the two men would help one another at harvest time... their children would play together... then, England departed their protectorate and the pan arab army was massing on the borders of Palestine ready to sweep in and drive the Jews into the Mediterranean. My friend's father's arab neighbor came to him and told him, no hard feelings, but he was going to leave his farm for a few weeks at the request of the arab leaders and he was going to take his family to Damascus for a few weeks while the pan arab army swept the jews into the Mediterranean and then, he would come back from Damascus and claim my friend's father's farm as his own.... no hard feelings...

As it turned out, the pan arab army was crushed by the Israeli Defense Force and my friend's father's neighbor and his family lived out their lives in a refugee camp on the outskirts of Damascus... and my friend's father annexed the arab neighbor's farm and farmed it productively until the day he died.

When I asked my friend to explain the palestinian problem to me, she said, "Palestinian problem? They fought a war...they lost.... no problem"

What an ignorant bitch.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I never said anything about 'self hating' Jews, so I do not know why you have. I would not insinuate such, nor would I assume that a Jewish person's critical opinion on Israel is any more valid simply because they are Jewish. (Though it almost seems that you are implying the latter.)

UN resolutions? Perhaps if they were to be used as legitimate evidence for anything, you would have already posted them. But regardless, your maps do nothing to prove that Israel is imperialistic. It only shows that the western powers created it with western goals in mind. Which I already said was true.

First off? The October war was started by Syria and Egypt. As far as I'm concerned Israel could've taken control of the entirety of both countries and been completely in the right. When you initiate a war and lose, the land taken as reparations is justified. Certainly you wouldn't claim otherwise? Do you claim that Egypt and Syria were justified in starting the war to begin with, and starting on a Jewish holiday no less?

And this Siegmann fellow? How does this prove Israeli imperialism? He's just giving his opinion that's not grounded in anything more than three short paragraphs could provide. Rhetoric =/= Evidence

You speak of atrocities and ignore the basic political fundamental truths that have concerned Israel and the Middle East for the last sixty some years: The bulk of the conflicts have been initiated by Israel's neighbors. The true tragedy is Europe's abject failure at giving the necessary support to Israel that it needs to survive, for if it were not for the United States we would now see a persecuted Jewish people in a situation that would make the current state of the Palestinians seem trivial.

And when I speak of the current state of the Palestinians, I speak of how terrorists like Arafat used and abused his people. There's no doubt that the Palestinians in Israel have it far better than those being brainwashed by fundamentaist Muslims.

You talk a good game, but history is not on your side.

They were justified in starting the war. The "Jewish state" was half arab before the Israeli's commenced with their crime against humanity when they ethnically cleansed the area.