Trump’s Boxes and Clinton’s Sock Drawer

[Bigdog]

it is you who does not 'comprende'.

The POTUS has the POWER to declassify. That is not the issue.

But as he and his White House argued in the only 3 cases that went to court because Trump and Meadows took them to court, that declassifying power does NOT happen unless they complete a process.


As i said in the other thread...





Comprende?

Yes, I read the first link and found it did not refer to documents in the President's possession, but docs held by other agencies. So, of course they would have to receive an order. However, documents in the Presidents possession require no orders to an agency. No second step as you claim.

Next.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Okay, once more for the cheap seats:


Michael Bekesha, the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ lawyer, misses the distinction between agency records and presidential records.



To repeat, that case did not involve agency records — much less classified reporting by the government’s intelligence agencies. It involved nonclassified tape recordings that President Clinton made with historian Taylor Branch in anticipation of compiling a history of his presidency.




https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/06/where-judicial-watchs-defense-of-trump-goes-wrong/

 

[QP!]

Yes, I read the first link and found it did not refer to documents in the President's possession, but docs held by other agencies. So, of course they would have to receive an order. However, documents in the Presidents possession require no orders to an agency. No second step as you claim.

Next.

Ok, Next.

Read the precedent cases as Trump was pointing at and waving the documents around in one of them saying it was declassified. He had the folder with im, so you are just making stupid shit up.

There is a process for a reason and that is because there can be a dozen or more copies of the same classified material with other people.

So if Trump holding it declassifies the document then the other people with the same document can share it around to anyone and not be charged. Even if Trump returned it later and did not want it declassified. By your logic every single time Trump left with a document it became declassified and that is just stupid.

Ergo you are stupid.

 

[Bigdog]

Ok, Next.

Read the precedent cases as Trump was pointing at and waving the documents around in one of them saying it was declassified. He had the folder with im, so you are just making stupid shit up.

There is a process for a reason and that is because there can be a dozen or more copies of the same classified material with other people.

So if Trump holding it declassifies the document then the other people with the same document can share it around to anyone and not be charged. Even if Trump returned it later and did not want it declassified. By your logic every single time Trump left with a document it became declassified and that is just stupid.

Ergo you are stupid.

Waving documents around? ... since he already declassified everything, obvioulsy he was kidding.




"Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything ...

PolitiFact
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...resident-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/
Claim: "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
Claimed by: James Risch
Fact check by PolitiFact: Mostly True"




The president's authority is derived from Article 2 section 2 of the Constitution which makes him CIC of the military.




Furhtermore ...

"DOES AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION EQUATE AUTOMATIC DISCLOSURE?

No. Classification is but one basis for an agency to withhold the disclosure of records or information. A declassified record may still contain information covered by additional restrictions that would require continued withholding of information from disclosure."

https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq


Next.

 

[QP!]

Waving documents around? ... since he already declassified everything, obvioulsy he was kidding.




"Does the president have 'the ability to declassify anything ...

PolitiFact
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...resident-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/
Claim: "The minute the president speaks about it to someone, he has the ability to declassify anything at any time without any process."
Claimed by: James Risch
Fact check by PolitiFact: Mostly True"




The president's authority is derived from Article 2 section 2 of the Constitution which makes him CIC of the military.




Furhtermore ...

"DOES AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION EQUATE AUTOMATIC DISCLOSURE?

No. Classification is but one basis for an agency to withhold the disclosure of records or information. A declassified record may still contain information covered by additional restrictions that would require continued withholding of information from disclosure."

https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq


Next.

FALSE and LIE.

While the POTUS has broad power to declassify almost any thing he chooses to, it is still subject to a process the POTUS must initiate.

STep 1 - Choose what is declassified and State it or Write it.
Step 2 - POTUS or his authorized designee instruct all necessary departments to then begin the declassify process.


If Step 2 is not done, then Step 1 is not sufficient and nothing is declassified as argued by Trump, Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers for Trump in the only 3 precedent cases where Trump made statements on the News or in Print that he HAD declassified documents, and when the Media said 'great here is a FOIA request, we want them', ... and the Trump team reconsidered and did not want the media to have them.

In all 3 cases the Trump team, sent by Trump argued in Court that Step 1 (Stating or Writing alone) is not sufficient to declassify by a POTUS if the Step 2 is not done. In all 3 cases the Judge agreed and the media lost.

 

[ExpressLane]

FALSE and LIE.

While the POTUS has broad power to declassify almost any thing he chooses to, it is still subject to a process the POTUS must initiate.

STep 1 - Choose what is declassified and State it or Write it.
Step 2 - POTUS or his authorized designee instruct all necessary departments to then begin the declassify process.


If Step 2 is not done, then Step 1 is not sufficient and nothing is declassified as argued by Trump, Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers for Trump in the only 3 precedent cases where Trump made statements on the News or in Print that he HAD declassified documents, and when the Media said 'great here is a FOIA request, we want them', ... and the Trump team reconsidered and did not want the media to have them.

In all 3 cases the Trump team, sent by Trump argued in Court that Step 1 (Stating or Writing alone) is not sufficient to declassify by a POTUS if the Step 2 is not done. In all 3 cases the Judge agreed and the media lost.

False, there is no process for how the POTUS must declassify. The President is the executive branch and Congress can't limit his Constitutional powers.

 

[QP!]

FALSE and LIE.

While the POTUS has broad power to declassify almost any thing he chooses to, it is still subject to a process the POTUS must initiate.

STep 1 - Choose what is declassified and State it or Write it.
Step 2 - POTUS or his authorized designee instruct all necessary departments to then begin the declassify process.


If Step 2 is not done, then Step 1 is not sufficient and nothing is declassified as argued by Trump, Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers for Trump in the only 3 precedent cases where Trump made statements on the News or in Print that he HAD declassified documents, and when the Media said 'great here is a FOIA request, we want them', ... and the Trump team reconsidered and did not want the media to have them.

In all 3 cases the Trump team, sent by Trump argued in Court that Step 1 (Stating or Writing alone) is not sufficient to declassify by a POTUS if the Step 2 is not done. In all 3 cases the Judge agreed and the media lost.

BTW the above is rare win for Trump in court which Trumpderps celebrated at the time as the fake Media was denied getting their hands on the STILL Classified material by Trump and Meadows the WH lawyers well constructed arguments that a POTUS words or writing alone DO NOT declassify shit. That Trump as POTUS can say 'this doc is now declassified' and wave a document around in a news conference, or he can do an official writing (Twitter) saying 'this doc is now declassified' and if the second part of the process is not followed thru on and completed, NOTHING is in fact declassified.

Trump and his team was correct and they won in court and nothing was declassified despite him saying it and writing that it was.

Trump checkmates Trump.

 

[Bigdog]

FALSE and LIE.

While the POTUS has broad power to declassify almost any thing he chooses to, it is still subject to a process the POTUS must initiate.

STep 1 - Choose what is declassified and State it or Write it.
Step 2 - POTUS or his authorized designee instruct all necessary departments to then begin the declassify process.

Even leftist Politifact disagrees with you.

And you haven't posted a single quote from those "cases" ... because you know they have absolutely nothing to do with declassifying presidential records.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

This case is a political hit job.

A judge and jury will decide that, not melon-picking HCQ snorters in Milam, Texas.

 

[QP!]

Even leftist Politifact disagrees with you.

And you haven't posted a single quote from those "cases" ... because you know they have absolutely nothing to do with declassifying presidential records.

No Politifact agrees with me. You just can't read.

And there is nothing specific to quote in the 3 cases. Just read the conclusions of all 3 cases. It says exactly what you Politico article says that if Media or someone tried a FOIA request Trump and co would argue instantly they were not IN FACT declassified and they could not have them.

Exactly what happened in all 3 cases. Trump sent in his team to say 'despite me saying and writing they were declassified, on TV news and on Twitter, they were not declassified as i did not follow thru with the NECESSARY Step 2.

So you are tell Trump and Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers who argued MY POINT, that they are wrong, even though they won in court.

That makes you dumb.

...The first caveat: While Trump has the power to declassify information, he doesn’t appear to have done that in this case, at least at the time the story broke.

"There’s no question that the president has broad authority to declassify almost anything at any time without any process, but that’s not what happened here," said Stephen I. Vladeck, professor at the University of Texas School of Law. "He did not, in fact, declassify the information he shared with the Russians, which is why The Washington Post did not publish that information."...

...Risch’s point speaks to general presidential authority but not what happened in this particular case.

"Trump surely would not concede that the information in question is now ‘unclassified’ and available to anyone who files a (Freedom of Information Act) request," ...

 

[Bigdog]

No Politifact agrees with me. You just can't read.

And there is nothing specific to quote in the 3 cases. Just read the conclusions of all 3 cases. It says exactly what you Politico article says that if Media or someone tried a FOIA request Trump and co would argue instantly they were not IN FACT declassified and they could not have them.

Exactly what happened in all 3 cases. Trump sent in his team to say 'despite me saying and writing they were declassified, on TV news and on Twitter, they were not declassified as i did not follow thru with the NECESSARY Step 2.

So you are tell Trump and Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers who argued MY POINT, that they are wrong, even though they won in court.

That makes you dumb.

Which, as you know, has absolutely nothing to do with declassifying presidential records ... which is why you still refuse to provide any relevant quote from the cases. I am not going to look for "your argument" for you.

And regarding FOIA ...

"DOES AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION EQUATE AUTOMATIC DISCLOSURE?

No. Classification is but one basis for an agency to withhold the disclosure of records or information. A declassified record may still contain information covered by additional restrictions that would require continued withholding of information from disclosure."

https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq

 

[QP!]

Which, as you know, has absolutely nothing to do with declassifying presidential records ... which is why you still refuse to provide any relevant quote from the cases. I am not going to look for "your argument" for you.

And regarding FOIA ...

"DOES AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION EQUATE AUTOMATIC DISCLOSURE?

No. Classification is but one basis for an agency to withhold the disclosure of records or information. A declassified record may still contain information covered by additional restrictions that would require continued withholding of information from disclosure."

https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq

As always you cannot comprehend the point.

in all 3 precedent cases, Trump sent in Meadows or his WH lawyers to argue that in fact...

- 'Even if i Donald Trump, as Potus, 'Say' in a public sphere like a tv interview OR 'write' in an official government writing like my Twitter account, that a document is declassified, IT IS NOT IN FACT declassified UNLESS, I Donald Trump, do Step 2, which is to instruct the relevant agencies to then take the REQUIRED steps to declassify them'

- 'Since I, Donald Trump, DID NOT take that REQUIRED Step 2 in any of these 3 instances, we therefore argue that NONE of the material was IN FACT declassified'


In all 3 cases DJT and Mark Meadows and the WH lawyers won and judges sided with them saying 'yes, without Step 2 being taken NOTHING has been declassified'.

That is the FACTUAL findings and outcome of all 3 precedent cases.

So whether Trump, 'says it is declassified publicly', 'writes it is declassified in an official government writing', 'or just thinks it', NONE of that declassifies anything if Step 2, is NOT taken.

 

[Bigdog]

As always you cannot comprehend the point.

in all 3 precedent cases, Trump sent in Meadows or his WH lawyers to argue that in fact...

- 'Even if i Donald Trump, as Potus, 'Say' in a public sphere like a tv interview OR 'write' in an official government writing like my Twitter account, that a document is declassified, IT IS NOT IN FACT declassified UNLESS, I Donald Trump, do Step 2, which is to instruct the relevant agencies to then take the REQUIRED steps to declassify them'

Your link for the "QUOTES" does not work.

The president’s legal authority to declassify has never been challenged by a court.

 

[domer76]

Trump is in a little bind here.

In order to claim that those documents were declassified, heresay won’t cut it. He’ll have to get on the stand to make that claim himself.

Also, any comparison between the sock drawer and Trump’s situation are bogus and irrelevant. The first was concerning documents that might be covered under the Presidential Records Act. Trump has not been charged with anything related to the PRA.

 

[QP!]

Your link for the "QUOTES" does not work.

What "QUOTES" are you referring to? Are you asking for the links to the 3 precedent cases again?

The president’s legal authority to declassify has never been challenged by a court.

Again this is not about Stage 1 and the Presidents AUTHORITY to declassify. As you say that has not been challenged in court.

WHAT HAS been challenged in Court is the process necessary in Stage 2 once the POTUS says or writes something is declassified.

Trumps own WH teams, under Trumps instructions challenged Stage 2 in court and they won.

What they established and won, is that no matter what the Potus may CHOOSE to declassify with his broad powers, what happens IN FACT, is that NOTHING ends up actually being declassified if Stage 2 is not instructed to happen by the POTUS to the vairious agencies and followed thru on.


The courts AGREED and FOUND that in FACT, NOTHING is declassified if Stage 2 does not take place.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Trump is in a little bind here.

In order to claim that those documents were declassified, heresay won’t cut it. He’ll have to get on the stand to make that claim himself.

Also, any comparison between the sock drawer and Trump’s situation are bogus and irrelevant. The first was concerning documents that might be covered under the Presidential Records Act. Trump has not been charged with anything related to the PRA.

Trump will never go on the stand. Ever. He has waaaaaay too much to lose.

 

[QP!]

Trump is in a little bind here.

In order to claim that those documents were declassified, hearsay won’t cut it. He’ll have to get on the stand to make that claim himself.

Also, any comparison between the sock drawer and Trump’s situation are bogus and irrelevant. The first was concerning documents that might be covered under the Presidential Records Act. Trump has not been charged with anything related to the PRA.

You are correct but it is actually more simple than that.

The Judge will be asked by the DOJ to exclude any presentation of a Defense that 'they were declassified' since 'classification' is not an element of the charges. The espionage act refers to 'government documents', which even if you grant the fallacious and wrong argument that they were declassified that still leaves them as 'government documents'. and thus still illegal to possess under the espionage act.

But god i hope Trump does get on the stand himself. He is Boebert level dumb and whenever he is forced to testify under oath, he always just vastly improves and locks up the case for the other side ('she is not my type;, 'that is Marla') and he would almost certainly leave the stand with 10 new perjury charges added as the new back up. If somehow he escaped this first prosecution they would then just bring all the perjury charges against him.

 

[Bigdog]

What "QUOTES" are you referring to? Are you asking for the links to the 3 precedent cases again?



Again this is not about Stage 1 and the Presidents AUTHORITY to declassify. As you say that has not been challenged in court.

WHAT HAS been challenged in Court is the process necessary in Stage 2 once the POTUS says or writes something is declassified.

Trumps own WH teams, under Trumps instructions challenged Stage 2 in court and they won.

What they established and won, is that no matter what the Potus may CHOOSE to declassify with his broad powers, what happens IN FACT, is that NOTHING ends up actually being declassified if Stage 2 is not instructed to happen by the POTUS to the vairious agencies and followed thru on.


The courts AGREED and FOUND that in FACT, NOTHING is declassified if Stage 2 does not take place.

So none of what you posted is a quote and you take full credit as the author?


" As the new ABA Legal Fact Check notes, the extent of a president’s legal authority to unilaterally declassify materials — without following formal procedures — has yet to be challenged in court."

"More than two months after FBI agents seized boxes of materials at former President Donald Trump’s Florida residence, known as Mar-a-Lago, the federal investigation continues amid conflicting legal interpretations of a president’s authority to declassify sensitive information."

https://www.americanbar.org/news/ab...es/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/

Despite you asserting that it is settled law, the ABA does not agree with you. I guess they don't know about those "3 cases".

 

[QP!]

Trump will never go on the stand. Ever. He has waaaaaay too much to lose.

It is such an awesome bind that he is in.

his lawyers will have no defense they can offer than arguing against the statutory obligations of the Espionage Act. They will need to somehow try to convince the jury that Trump did not violate the elements of the Espionage Act and thus did not break the law...

...(e)Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it; …

- The law exists and is enforceable so that part cannot be denied.

- They will be stuck arguing the material does not meet the standard of being able to 'injure the US'. Good luck with that, especially given Trumps recording where he admits how serious the material is.
- They will be stuck arguing that Trump did not "willfully' keep it from the archives. Good luck with that with him engaging in 'hide and go seek' game, and lying via affidavit in response to the subpoena so that he could keep it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Despite you asserting that it is settled law, the ABA does not agree with you. I guess they don't know about those "3 cases".

Read it again, dumbass. This will be settled in court. Care to bet which way it goes, pup? Or do you lack the courage of your convictions?