What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?

Cypress said:
There was an oral tradition, and multiple independent written testimonies about the life of Jesus circulating in the Eastern Mediterranean in the decades immediately following Jesus' execution. The letters of Paul and the synoptic gospels of Mark, Mathew, and Luke being surviving examples.

It stains credulity that a massive hoax of this nature could have been pulled off with no one ever confessing to the hoax.

The small group of people who were purported to be in Jesus' ministry were illiterate peasants from northen Judea -- not exactly the type of people you would expect could pull off a history's most clever and remarkably successful hoax.
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Well that's why I think it's more likely that Jesus lived. But it's also not far-fetched to say he was a mythological figure that these people believed in. Especially considering that the gospels were anonymously written and much of Luke and Matthew were just copied from Mark.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
It's proof it can be done, more or less, but the fact mains purely verbal communication over a century is highly vulnerable to distortion.
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Not on the evidence. Homer's work survived for hundreds of years, and yet has the clear feel of an individual author. You can find lots of equivalents of the legendary bits in the New Testament, but who, other than Buddha maybe, said anything like what is attributed to Jesus?
 
Penderyn said:
Not on the evidence. Homer's work survived for hundreds of years, and yet has the clear feel of an individual author. You can find lots of equivalents of the legendary bits in the New Testament, but who, other than Buddha maybe, said anything like what is attributed to Jesus?
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It's debatable if, like Sun Tzu, that Homer even existed. Add to that the problem if confirming the exactness of epic poems and stories verbally passed down over a few centuries without any means to confirm if the one version is exactly the same as a version from 2-3 centuries earlier.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
It's debatable if, like Sun Tzu, that Homer even existed. Add to that the problem if confirming the exactness of epic poems and stories verbally passed down over a few centuries without any means to confirm if the one version is exactly the same as a version from 2-3 centuries earlier.
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Ah, well, I expect Greek scholarship is a myth too! I studied practical criticism with Leavis, so I tend to have a different view of these things.
 
Penderyn said:
Ah, well, I expect Greek scholarship is a myth too! I studied practical criticism with Leavis, so I tend to have a different view of these things.
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No, it certainly existed, but they weren't super-humans. Just people. IIRC, anatomical modern man has been around for up to 300,000 years, but modern thinking man has been around for only 20,000 to 30,000 years. Not much has changed since then....except a lot more wisdom teeth have been pulled.
I guess the designer fucked that part up...along with appendixes. :)
 
Dutch Uncle said:
No, it certainly existed, but they weren't super-humans. Just people. IIRC, anatomical modern man has been around for up to 300,000 years, but modern thinking man has been around for only 20,000 to 30,000 years. Not much has changed since then....except a lot more wisdom teeth have been pulled.
I guess the designer fucked that part up...along with appendixes. :)
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Modern thinking man is quite good at historical linguistics, historical references and the like. He decides that Homer is the work of a single author written at a specific time, and finds the style etcetera to be consistent with that time.
 
Penderyn said:
Modern thinking man is quite good at historical linguistics, historical references and the like. He decides that Homer is the work of a single author written at a specific time, and finds the style etcetera to be consistent with that time.
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Believe as you wish. The sources I've found leave room for doubt.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Homer-Greek-poet
Admittedly, there is some doubt over whether the Iliad and the Odyssey were even composed by the same main author. Such doubts began in antiquity itself and depended mainly on the difference of genre (the Iliad being martial and heroic, the Odyssey picaresque and often fantastic), but they may be reinforced by subtle differences of vocabulary even apart from those imposed by different subjects. Aristotle’s conception of the Odyssey as a work of Homer’s old age is not impossible; but if the Iliad is the earlier of the two (as seems likely from its simpler structure and the greater frequency of relatively late linguistic forms in the Odyssey), then the Odyssey could have been created after its image, and as a conscious supplement, once the example of monumental composition had been given. In any case the similarities of the two poems are partly due to the coherence of the heroic poetical tradition that lay behind both.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Believe as you wish. The sources I've found leave room for doubt.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Homer-Greek-poet
Admittedly, there is some doubt over whether the Iliad and the Odyssey were even composed by the same main author. Such doubts began in antiquity itself and depended mainly on the difference of genre (the Iliad being martial and heroic, the Odyssey picaresque and often fantastic), but they may be reinforced by subtle differences of vocabulary even apart from those imposed by different subjects. Aristotle’s conception of the Odyssey as a work of Homer’s old age is not impossible; but if the Iliad is the earlier of the two (as seems likely from its simpler structure and the greater frequency of relatively late linguistic forms in the Odyssey), then the Odyssey could have been created after its image, and as a conscious supplement, once the example of monumental composition had been given. In any case the similarities of the two poems are partly due to the coherence of the heroic poetical tradition that lay behind both.
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As I understand it, the likelihood is that he put together a lot of earlier poems, re-making them in his own style. If the two were created by different people, they are both known as Homer, and we are no further forward by saying there are two very similar authors at about the same date. The established version, so to speak, was created in pre-democratic Athens, before which it was remembered rather than written down, like so very much else, largely by the poet who made 'Tell them in Sparta' (I used to be able to quote that in Greek, but my memory is not of the pre-writing kind!), who had an ear for these things.
 
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Penderyn said:
As I understand it, the likelihood is that he put together a lot of earlier writings, writing in his own style. If the two were written by different people, they are both known as Homer, and we are no further forward by saying there are two very similar authors at about the same date.
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I think it's more like Sun Tzu, but longer. The main point is that expecting an epic poem to be verbally passed on over the campfire for several centuries and expecting it to remain 100% the same is, IMO, asking a lot of human nature.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Thank you for another example of your hatred and bigotry toward those who disagree with you about killing off religion.

Sent from a Moderate Mind using logic and common sense and more facts than you're able to muster.
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It would be nice if you actually said something instead of just puking all over yourself.

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Survivorman said:
How much poverty? Just what you can see from your front door? How much have you gotten around, or do you believe what the scandal sheets tell uou?

I can see that you dont have a calculator. UBI and the so-called "Medicare for all" are pipe dreams.
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Funny, every developed nation besides us has single payer health insurance and spends less with better outcomes.

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