Why do Christians believe in Jesus when He's NOWHERE in the Hebrew Bible?

Cypress said:
That's why I don't think religion is useless or utterly irrational.
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Just because people do something does not make it ipso facto rational or useful. People throughout history have done horrible things to each other, but I don't think anyone would call it "useful" or "rational".

Decent, well balanced people on a day to day basis think about how to live a meaningful human life
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Yes, philosophy has a role. Supernatural concepts and unfalsifiable concepts really aren't of much value to anyone. It's like a "safety blankey" for a little kid. It won't protect them from ANYTHING but it "feels" to the child like it would.

and what values to cultivate. As much as I love science, those don't originate from mathematical equations or laboratory experiments.
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Actually it is quite easy to construct a workable morality and ethics using scientific principles. It's usually when it gets over-extended to some universal Truth that it gets dodgy with regards to ethics and morality.
 
Cypress said:
I've always had good exchanges with you and DU.

I'm just here to make fun of Trump and to discuss interesting topics!
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Looks kinda like Dutch Uncle is a DeSantis guy. Be careful making fun of Trump since DeSantis wouldn't even be on the national stage if he hadn't gotten a boost from Trump's time in the Oval. Might one day accidentally insult DeSantis and given DU's narcissistic and abusive nature you will ultimately feel some unpleasantness from him.
 
Cypress said:
That's why I don't think religion is useless or utterly irrational.

99 percent of a human life does not involve thinking about particle physics, integral calculus, or evolutionary biology.

Decent, well balanced people on a day to day basis think about how to live a meaningful human life and what values to cultivate. As much as I love science, those don't originate from mathematical equations or laboratory experiments. They come from a contemplation and experience with the binding metaphysical moral vision of a religious or philosophical tradition.
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Agreed on religion. Religions, like martial arts, offer different paths to the same end goal. In the case of martial arts, it's self-defense and self-discipline. In religion, it's spiritual enlightenment and self-awareness as part of a greater whole.

Those who cherry-pick the Bible and only give lip-service to their Christian religion are stopping at the lowest level; religion by rote. The link below discusses that point:

https://brackenhurstbaptist.co.za/rote-religiosity/
There is a world of difference between rote religiosity and a vibrant relationship with God, even if people try to find these things in the same place. There is a world of difference between mere easing of guilty feelings over one’s sin and intimacy with God. Christianity is not, first and foremost, about securing some form of temporal favour with God. It is about entering into a vibrant relationship with the living God. If you long for anything less than that, you are not interested in the gospel message.

God is not interested in your rote religiosity. All the religious expression in the world does not impress him apart from “a broken and contrite heart” (v. 17).
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Just because people do something does not make it ipso facto rational or useful. People throughout history have done horrible things to each other, but I don't think anyone would call it "useful" or "rational".



Yes, philosophy has a role. Supernatural concepts and unfalsifiable concepts really aren't of much value to anyone. It's like a "safety blankey" for a little kid. It won't protect them from ANYTHING but it "feels" to the child like it would.



Actually it is quite easy to construct a workable morality and ethics using scientific principles. It's usually when it gets over-extended to some universal Truth that it gets dodgy with regards to ethics and morality.
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Atheists can be as moral as anyone else.

The question is, where did that binding moral framework come from?

There is no unified globally recognized canonical documents or scripture memorializing 'atheist morals '.

None of use woke up one day at age ten with knowledge of a unified moral framework.

Neither did our parents or grandparents.

There are about 50k people on the entire planet of have ever heard of or read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics or Marcus Aurelius ' Meditations.

In the West and in the East generations of people, up to today, have been inculcated either directly or indirectly for 2000 years, with values and moral frameworks of the world's religious traditions.

We can strip away the religious language and ritual, but in the west we generally have adopted by default (even if we aren't consciously aware of it) some of the main ethical tenets of Judeo-Christianity or Islam, while in East and South Asia, secular or not, they are products of a Hindu-Buddhist-Confucian value system.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Funny, but that would seem to apply to you as well.

I guess your intellectual limitations are much more debilitating that I thought.

You see, I don't like to use the "ignore" feature and I LOVE seeing you flail around mocking degrees you couldn't even BEGIN to get yourself.

It's pretty obvious you carry a huge chip on your shoulder because of your failures and lack of ability.
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The difference, Perry PhD, is you're the one whining about it. I'm simply curious on why you are over stressed and venting on JPP. Is it work related? Personal relationship? Mental illness? IDK, but I'm curious.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Looks kinda like Dutch Uncle is a DeSantis guy. Be careful making fun of Trump since DeSantis wouldn't even be on the national stage if he hadn't gotten a boost from Trump's time in the Oval. Might one day accidentally insult DeSantis and given DU's narcissistic and abusive nature you will ultimately feel some unpleasantness from him.
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Dutch and I agree to disagree where needed.

I always felt the worst day as a geologist is better than the best day as a tax accountant. So I have a pretty thick skin if anyone wants to mock my educational endeavors.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed on religion. Religions, like martial arts, offer different paths to the same end goal. In the case of martial arts, it's self-defense and self-discipline. In religion, it's spiritual enlightenment and self-awareness as part of a greater whole.

Those who cherry-pick the Bible and only give lip-service to their Christian religion are stopping at the lowest level; religion by rote. The link below discusses that point:

https://brackenhurstbaptist.co.za/rote-religiosity/
There is a world of difference between rote religiosity and a vibrant relationship with God, even if people try to find these things in the same place. There is a world of difference between mere easing of guilty feelings over one’s sin and intimacy with God. Christianity is not, first and foremost, about securing some form of temporal favour with God. It is about entering into a vibrant relationship with the living God. If you long for anything less than that, you are not interested in the gospel message.

God is not interested in your rote religiosity. All the religious expression in the world does not impress him apart from “a broken and contrite heart” (v. 17).
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Religion, like many human constructs, can be liberating or corrupting .

Obviously the cult-like status of the Westboro Baptist church and some of the Saudi wahhabi fundamentalists are actively harmful to human dignity and liberation.

I agree about rote routines, but I admit I always kind of liked the elaborate ritual and tradition of the Eastern Orthodox liturgy.
 
Cypress said:
Atheists can be as moral as anyone else.

The question is, where did that binding moral framework come from?
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Other humans, of course.

None of use woke up one day at age ten with knowledge of a unified moral framework.
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No, we were taught it.

Neither did our parents or grandparents.
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They were taught right and wrong.

Morality is effectively a human construct. Or more accurately a "social animal construct".
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Other humans, of course.



No, we were taught it.



They were taught right and wrong.

Morality is effectively a human construct. Or more accurately a "social animal construct".
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where did your parents or Great great grandparents get it?

A unified ethical framework never just popped into your mind, your parents mind, your great grandparents minds one Tuesday morning at age ten out of nowhere..

Anyone who has read the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aneird knows that charity, humility, mercy, universal compassion were not natural values that everyone just happens to be born with.

The Code of Hammurabi is basically a type of criminal code. Restraining oneself from raping and murdering is the lowest ethical bar possible to clear, and does not really define the moral life.

All those ethics you, me, and most other people around the world were inculcated with are tied by history, time, and space to either the Christian tradition or one of the other Axial Age religious traditions.

That 2000 year old ethical framework is still with us even when we strip away religious language and ritual
 
Cypress said:
where did your parents or Great great grandparents get it?

A unified ethical framework never just popped into your mind, your parents mind, your great grandparents minds one Tuesday morning at age ten out of nowhere..

Anyone who has read the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aneird knows that charity, humility, mercy, universal compassion were not natural values that everyone just happens to be born with.

The Code of Hammurabi is basically a type of criminal code. Refraining from raping and murdering is the lowest ethical bar possible to clear, and does not really define the moral life.

All those ethics you, me, and most other people around the world were inculcated with are tied by history, time, and space to either the Christian tradition or one of the other Axial Age religious traditions.

That 2000 year old ethical framework is still with us even when we strip away religious language and ritual
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Praise Jesus!
 
Cypress said:
where did your parents or Great great grandparents get it?
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From their parents.

But going back far enough it arises out of what happens in any social group. Rules, arbitrary and some not-so-arbitrary emerge over time for the sole purpose of ensuring that the social network remain stable providing the safety of the group to the individuals in the social group.

Do you think a dog needs to have a philosophical background to know to follow dog pack rules?

Because at the end of the day that's all it is. No one says it is immoral for a well-fed cat to kill a songbird.


A unified ethical framework never just popped into your mind
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In a sense that is exactly how it started. Animals that group together for safety and survival will have to work with each other. That leads directly to a moral framework. The concept of what is "right" and "wrong" thus are established.


Anyone who has read the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Aneird knows that charity, humility, mercy, universal compassion were not natural values that everyone just happens to be born with.
Click to expand...

I have never seen universal compassion within humans. So we can dispense with that myth. That isn't a "morality" humans have.

All those ethics you, me, and most other people around the world were inculcated with are tied by history, time, and space to either the Christian tradition or one of the other Axial Age religious traditions.
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Morality (such as it actually is) pre-exists any religion. Pre-exists any codified human thought. Early humans working in groups would have understood that unjustified murder of other members of their group would result in less-stable, less-safe social groups. So there is a moral reason NOT to unjustly murder.

That 2000 year old ethical framework is still with us even when we strip away religious language and ritual
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Gosh I hope "morality" and "ethics" is older than 2000 years. I think murder was considered wrong LONG before even the Jews wrote down the 10 Commandments.
 
Cypress said:
That's why I don't think religion is useless or utterly irrational.

99 percent of a human life does not involve thinking about particle physics, integral calculus, or evolutionary biology.

Decent, well balanced people on a day to day basis think about how to live a meaningful human life and what values to cultivate. As much as I love science, those don't originate from mathematical equations or laboratory experiments. They come from a contemplation and experience with the binding metaphysical moral vision of a religious or philosophical tradition.
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Religion would be exactly what Marx said,if God isn't real.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
From their parents.

In a sense that is exactly how it started. Animals that group together for safety and survival will have to work with each other. That leads directly to a moral framework. The concept of what is "right" and "wrong" thus are established.

I have never seen universal compassion within humans. So we can dispense with that myth. That isn't a "morality" humans have.

Morality (such as it actually is) pre-exists any religion. Pre-exists any codified human thought. Early humans working in groups would have understood that unjustified murder of
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People like Cypress think morality comes from God. And since we have morality, it proves God exists.
 
BidenPresident said:
People like Cypress think morality comes from God. And since we have morality, it proves God exists.
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That is not at all uncommon. A lot of people feel that morality can only be from a supernatural or some sort of non-physical, or metaphysical source.

I always try to look at animals for comparison. There are groups of animals which I doubt very highly have any sense of the "divine" or "metaphysical" but who follow strict rules that really only make sense within their group.

As I noted earlier: no one makes the argument that a well-fed housecat is acting "immorally" when it hunts and kills a songbird. If it were a human that would be a morally questionable thing to do. But the cat is not part of our "social group" and as such we don't apply our morals to the cat.

My dog, on the other hand, knows it is WRONG to bite my hand, even when he's mad at me. Or he knows it is wrong to look me directly in the eye. These rules carry the same weight of importance to the dog as most moral rules carry for me.

They are all just mutually agreed upon (or emergent) properties of social groups. IMHO.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
That is not at all uncommon. A lot of people feel that morality can only be from a supernatural or some sort of non-physical, or metaphysical source.

I always try to look at animals for comparison. There are groups of animals which I doubt very highly have any sense of the "divine" or "metaphysical" but who follow strict rules that really only make sense within their group.

As I noted earlier: no one makes the argument that a well-fed housecat is acting "immorally" when it hunts and kills a songbird. If it were a human that would be a morally questionable thing to do. But the cat is not part of our "social group" and as such we don't apply our morals to the cat.

My dog, on the other hand, knows it is WRONG to bite my hand, even when he's mad at me. Or he knows it is wrong to look me directly in the eye. These rules carry the same weight of importance to the dog as most moral rules carry for me.

They are all just mutually agreed upon (or emergent) properties of social groups. IMHO.
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Some people think without God people would freely murder others. But do people really want to murder? Some do. Most don't.
 
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