About where you live.

Threedee said:
God didn't put the Indians in North America. He put them in India and gave them a land bridge of ice you retarded prole!!
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Just when I thought you couldn't say anything dumber......well you may have studied history in college but you sure as hell didn't study anthropology.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Ah...so it doesn't bother you that your predecdessors committed genocide in a war of anhiliation on the people who previously occupied the land you now call home?
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Which predecessors were those? You are making some serious assumptions about me that have prevailing errors. And regardless of that, and to keep the conversation flowing:

Let's say my father killed some family in some horrible way, how much guilt should I, as in this guy who didn't do it, feel about it? Let's extend that back. What if it was my Great Grandfather whom I never met? How much of his guilt is mine?

Nor did any "predecessor" commit genocide, at least not on this continent in the way that you are trying to project. Yours may have, but not mine.

Can you tell me how much guilt I should feel if I was a member of a tribe of Native Americans whose predecessors killed an entire tribe to take over hunting grounds? What if I were Arabic and my family immigrated here only two generations ago? How much guilt should I feel about some fictional "predecessor" who did something that my family never participated in?

Which part of the guilt can be assuaged by the reality that tribes warred with each other, committing "genocide", should those Native Americans be considered "White" enough to feel generational guilt? Would their kids be "Native" or simply be considered "usurpers", even if they never participated in any of the wars?

The reality is that there is no group of humans on this planet that can claim that their "predecessors" never participated in cultural violence that was prevalent during the past. That you want to project generational guilt onto those who never participated is clear, that I should actually accept this supposed guilt? That's just foolish, nor does it change that I am Native to this land, it is where I was born and raised, regardless of where and when my predecessors came to this land.
 
WinterBorn said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
My definition is based on the FACTS that the people whose ancestors SETTLED this area over a thousand or so years ago have the right to call it a "homeland", while a the descendants of a bunch of immigrants less than 400 years old don't.
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Facts? lol

The people who settled my homeland are long gone. Are you talking about what is now known as America? Because their DIRECT ANCESTORS ARE STILL HERE...and were LONG before your family set "roots" here. My family, however, have ties to much of the history of the area and still has roots there. We have no family history in Ireland that we are aware of, but we do here. Not to sound callous, but so what? Your family history sure as hell didn't originate here over a thousand years ago...neither did mine. And when our folk got here, they didn't assimilate, they took over. Again, this is your (and mine) home, country, nation, but NOT our "homeland". The right to use that term goes to the direct relatives who originally settled this territory dating back to cave man days. Sorry, but what you believe does not pan out when examining the original usage of that word.

And who made this decision to put an arbitrary number of years in as a requirement?
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History, my friend. That is how the wonderful world of anthropology works...by establishing who inhabited what geography and for how long, what they looked like, their individual culture, etc., etc. See, as I stated from the start, the mindset of the Shrub & company was to put their ancestry on par with that of the Native peoples' in terms of "right of claim" to this land. That old chestnut has been a sticking point for generations....which is why it pisses me off that folk think they can just declare something or redefine something that soothes their psyche regardless of the historical facts that contradict those beliefs.
 
WinterBorn said:
Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
"We" are a bunch of 400 year old immigrants that usurped the native people who settled the joint over a millenia ago. Deal with it. their homeland, NOT yours
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I'm glad you feel you have the ability to decide who gets a homeland and who does not.

I don't, but historical facts do....it was the Shrub & company who have done what you accuse me off with this "Homeland Security" monicker.

But it boils down to whether or not one accepts your definitions. You need to deal with THAT.

See above response.

You want it to only be the original inhabitants and always in excess of 500 years? Congrats, you can make that determination for your own history.

Again, I don't create or want...I'm merely pointing out what IS. The Native People's ancestors SETTLED THIS LAND A MILLENIA AGO....what you are advocating is akin to the same mindset as the Afrikkaners of South Africa....because their idea of what constitutes culture and societal history of a "homeland" vastly differs from what the original inhabitants consider for generations reaching back thousands of years.

I have a homeland that is rich in the history of my family. That you stomp your feet and claim it is not my homeland really makes no difference whatsoever.
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You can repeat your belief until doomsday.....it still won't erase the FACTS I laid forth. But as with all descendants of conquering colonialists, you feel you can determine what is and isn't, as to the victors goes the spoils. But the truth and facts have a nasty way of always annoying beliefs.
 
leaningright said:
I am 1/4 Choctaw and at least 1/8 Cherokee. My great-great-grandfather on my mother's side was as Irish as can be. I am claiming this country as my homeland but will allow that of Cawacko, Winterbon, Damo, Rana, and others as well. This is kind of a silly thread, IMO.
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You are entitled to your opinion, just as the Choctaw and Cherokee were entitled to the land that their people settled and called home for over a thousand years. Your Irish ancestor was a recent immigrant on the time scale...he did not settle any land, as people were already here and did that. The Europeans essentially STOLE a nation from various peoples in order to establish their new "homeland".

Once you allow a false and misleading premise to go unchallenged, you risk raising a generation that believes that to be truth...and that is a dangerous thing to do.
 
Damocles said:
Which predecessors were those? You are making some serious assumptions about me that have prevailing errors. And regardless of that, and to keep the conversation flowing:

Let's say my father killed some family in some horrible way, how much guilt should I, as in this guy who didn't do it, feel about it? Let's extend that back. What if it was my Great Grandfather whom I never met? How much of his guilt is mine?

Nor did any "predecessor" commit genocide, at least not on this continent in the way that you are trying to project. Yours may have, but not mine.

Can you tell me how much guilt I should feel if I was a member of a tribe of Native Americans whose predecessors killed an entire tribe to take over hunting grounds? What if I were Arabic and my family immigrated here only two generations ago? How much guilt should I feel about some fictional "predecessor" who did something that my family never participated in?

Which part of the guilt can be assuaged by the reality that tribes warred with each other, committing "genocide", should those Native Americans be considered "White" enough to feel generational guilt? Would their kids be "Native" or simply be considered "usurpers", even if they never participated in any of the wars?

The reality is that there is no group of humans on this planet that can claim that their "predecessors" never participated in cultural violence that was prevalent during the past. That you want to project generational guilt onto those who never participated is clear, that I should actually accept this supposed guilt? That's just foolish, nor does it change that I am Native to this land, it is where I was born and raised, regardless of where and when my predecessors came to this land.
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Ahh I see....so what you are saying is we bear no responsibility for the past?
 
Skeleton Jelly said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
For the record:

This is the United States of America....my country, my home, but NOT my "homeland". The ONLY people who have a right to call this part of the world their "homeland" are the descendants of the indigenous people who inhabited it for thousands of years BEFORE the Vikings and later Europeans showed up. Other than that, we're all descendants of immigrants less than 400 years old to date. We are NOT European country who has a homogenous populace for generations. So spare me this "homeland security" crap, because no matter how much the Bush family wants to think they are on par with the "indians" in laying claim to this country, they are not. Period. That's all I wanted to get off my chest.
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this may in fact be the most retarded thing I have ever read on here.
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Translation: Pissed off because it threatens a belief and mindset that has gone unchallenged.
 
Skeleton Jelly said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
At LEAST a thousand years, son. Any other questions?
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so do the english not have a homeland either? the normans invaded england in the early 11th century. On the plus side I guess they will finally have a homeland in about ~50 years or so. sweet deal.
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Go ask the British, that's NOT what I'm talking about here. Pay attention.
 
Damocles said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Spoken like the descendent of a colonialist (or imperialist...whichever comes first). Reminds me of a "politically incorrect" show we're Bill Marr was debating some Mexican-American actress....she said, "but it was OUR land, OUR culture". Marr scoffed, "NO IT WASN'T...YOU STOLE IT FROM THE INDIANS...JUST LIKE WE DID!"

Nuff said.
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You know nothing about me, at all. Big deal, this thread isn't about you per se...but if you make stupid statements, I'm going to call you on it, and as YOU are the author of those statements, I critique your personal opinion. Relish your ignorance, Oh put your skirt down, no once is impressed. it doesn't change what is: Native born Americans are Native, even if their ancestors didn't migrate over the Bering Strait. No shit sherlock...but the degree of ancestral claim is what I'm talking about, as I stated in my opening post They are just as much native to here as any other Native born American. No, they are not....that's the same BS Afrikkaners spew....they roll in with their cultural and social way of doing things, usurp that which originally settled and occupied the region for thousands of years and then say, "this is my homeland because great grand dad did so & so". Sorry, but that idea differs from Mandela to Botha. What you fail to understand is that no matter what, all the people here came here from somewhere else, including those you want to believe have some stronger claim.

Not belief, son...FACTS. Remember, the native people SETTLED this land.....the FIRST people to inhabit this land and set up nations with cultures that lasted well over a thousand years. So this bullshit about "homeland" from a bunch of descended immigrants less than 400 years who did everything to eradicate what came before them is just that...bullshit.

The idea that I would have some basic claim to, say, Winterborn's home because I was a Native American is simply an urge to be apologetic for some past in which you never participated. Feel guilty for British Hegemony as much as you want, just stop projecting it onto others. I wasn't there for that, didn't participate in it, and will never have to feel your projected "guilt"...
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Ahhh, and now we get to the nitty gritty.....the pissed off denial and justification for YOUR ancestors actions that bared the fruit of your existence in order to spew the delusion that your "homeland" claim is on par with that of a Native Person. TFB pal, because the truth is a bitch sometimes. I suggest you review the Kenniwick Man case, because that exemplifies what I'm talking about. Like I said, your home, your nation, your country but NOT your "homeland"
 
Threedee said:
God didn't put the Indians in North America. He put them in India and gave them a land bridge of ice you retarded prole!!
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And as I've stated before, they SETTLED this UNINHABITED land thousands of years prior to your ancestors less than 400 year arrival. So by YOUR own standards, they have the RIGHT to call it a homeland, NOT YOU.

Thanks for playing, bunky. Now say something stupid or repeat yourself or throw out some schoolyard insult....that's about all you're good for.
 
Threedee said:
After killing all of your Neanderthal ancestors off in the process.
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Do a little more research, pal.....there's a LOT of evidence of breeding between Neanderthal and Homo Sapien.

But even if that is the case...and I'm not saying it is.....you STILL have a group of people who were the first to settle vast areas of unpopulated land to the point where they created various NATIONS that criss-crossed it. they did this THOUSANDS OF YEARS before YOUR ancestors arrived and set up shop under 400 years.

So by your own standards, the direct descendants of these folks have the right of claim to the phrase "homeland", while YOU don't. Essentially, you're pulling the same mindset as an Afrikkaner in South Africa. An unpleasant thought, but none-the-less true.

But that does NOT change the
 
Taichiliberal said:
You can repeat your belief until doomsday.....it still won't erase the FACTS I laid forth. But as with all descendants of conquering colonialists, you feel you can determine what is and isn't, as to the victors goes the spoils. But the truth and facts have a nasty way of always annoying beliefs.
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I'm mostly irish. My ancestors didn't conquer anything but whiskey bottles. In fact, my ancestors would have been treated worse than slaves in the pre-civil war era.

But that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you want to classify it all as if this were some anthropology class project. That is fine, if that is what you want to believe. But I do not accept the constrants you put on the ability to call something my homeland. These numbers you have arbitrarily selected actually mean nothing. Perhaps you do not have a homeland. But I (and my family) certainly do.

And BTW, what is the point of all of this? Even if you managed to convince people you are correct, you accomplish nothing positive and actually do harm in some small by having people feel more disconnected than ever. Is this your goal?
 
Taichiliberal said:
For the record:

This is the United States of America....my country, my home, but NOT my "homeland". The ONLY people who have a right to call this part of the world their "homeland" are the descendants of the indigenous people who inhabited it for thousands of years BEFORE the Vikings and later Europeans showed up. Other than that, we're all descendants of immigrants less than 400 years old to date. We are NOT European country who has a homogenous populace for generations. So spare me this "homeland security" crap, because no matter how much the Bush family wants to think they are on par with the "indians" in laying claim to this country, they are not. Period. That's all I wanted to get off my chest.
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since my father was born on a reservation, i think that i have a right to weigh in. actually 'native Americans' were immigrants also from various parts of the world
 
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