bye bye atheism!

See the problem you believers have is you don't understand that we can have free will and nonetheless, an omniscient god can still see what the outcomes of our use of that free will will be. Adam and Eve didn't know they were going to eat the apple when they did, but god did, god could watch the whole thing play out BEFORE he even created them and would KNOW that Adam and Eve would disobey him. So the question is, knowing what he knew, why give them the choice at all? Either keep the tree away from them, or tell them, you two are going to eat from this tree, thus disobeying me, therefore, I am just throwing everyone out of the pool now.

Jeremiah shows, within the context of the biblical story, that god is omniscient and therefore knows everything that will happen before it happens. Sees what choices we make before we are even born and the outcomes of those choices.
 
Socrtease said:
So this part of the bible is wrong?

"Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I haw appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5).

This indicates that god is omniscient, can see into the future. So if you say this is not true, I will drop it. God can't see into the future. But if Jeremiah 1:5 is true, then god CAN see into the future and knows what our actions will be including knowing that Adam and Eve would disobey him BEFORE he told them not to eat of the tree. Which would be stupid because he could have avoided their disobedience by just putting a big ass wall around the tree, or not putting it in the garden. So, can god see into the future? The bible says he can and it says he knew and consecrated Jeremiah BEFORE he was born.
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I think that passage indicates exactly what it says, that God made the individual He's speaking to as a prophet on the day that he was created.

You seem to imply that God has a much more detailed plan, not just for that individual but for everyone, and that plan is detailed down to the fruit that we eat on a particular day. That's obviously not the case.
 
Southern Man said:
I think that passage indicates exactly what it says, that God made the individual He's speaking to as a prophet on the day that he was created.

You seem to imply that God has a much more detailed plan, not just for that individual but for everyone, and that plan is detailed down to the fruit that we eat on a particular day. That's obviously not the case.
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No, BEFORE he was in the womb, as an egg, he knew he would be prophet. This is the problem, you want to be a plain language reader of the constitution but not the bible. The passage speaks of omniscience, not just general hopes for the future. God NEW before Jeremiah was in the womb, that he would be a prophet. Not that he hoped he would be, but that he WOULD be. That is knowledge of the future, unless you are saying god cannot see into the future. Then he's not much of a god is he.

This has nothing to do with god's plan. Whether god wants it or not, he sees it before it happens. He is omniscient. He can see what choices we make before we actually make them.
 
Socrtease said:
See the problem you believers have is you don't understand that we can have free will and nonetheless, an omniscient god can still see what the outcomes of our use of that free will will be.
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Again, that's not free will. Free will is such that the Creator the opportunity to make choices and has no control over that.

For the example of a parent and child, your version of free will would be like telling the child that she can have anything that she wants for lunch, then making her eat a baloney sandwich. Actual free will means that if she wants Ben and Jerry's bacon flavored ice cream and if its available, she gets that.
 
Southern Man said:
Again, that's not free will. Free will is such that the Creator the opportunity to make choices and has no control over that.

For the example of a parent and child, your version of free will would be like telling the child that she can have anything that she wants for lunch, then making her eat a baloney sandwich. Actual free will means that if she wants Ben and Jerry's bacon flavored ice cream and if its available, she gets that.
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You really don't understand omniscience do you. It can be your choice, but god is going to know what choice you made before you made it. If he doesn't then he is not omniscient. I am not saying god has ANY hand in it, but he knows the outcome anyway, otherwise he is not omniscient and that makes him a pretty limited god.
 
Socrtease said:
No, BEFORE he was in the womb, as an egg, he knew he would be prophet. This is the problem, you want to be a plain language reader of the constitution but not the bible. The passage speaks of omniscience, not just general hopes for the future. God NEW before Jeremiah was in the womb, that he would be a prophet. Not that he hoped he would be, but that he WOULD be. That is knowledge of the future, unless you are saying god cannot see into the future. Then he's not much of a god is he.
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The Bible is not the Constitution so shouldn't be read the same. But that's irrelevant here.

The passage was written after Jeremiah was a prophet, not while he was an egg. That's like me saying to my son, graduating from high school that I knew that he would be a good student before he was born. I knew that then because I had a general plan as well as control over much of his life experiences, not that I planed out ever minute detail, down to the particular fruit that he was to eat on a particular day.
 
Southern Man said:
Obviously you don't understand what free will is. It means that the person has absolute freedom to decide what he does next, completely independent of his Creator. Human beings aren't robots. There's no way that God can know what His creation will do at any given time and place. And because we have free will, we also get to decide how to behave, then we have to face the consequences of heaven or hell. God doesn't decide where we end up. He just sets up the rules and we choose to follow them or not.
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Ok I missed the highlighted part. So what you are saying is that according to the bible god is limited on his ability to see the future. So he cannot violate laws of time and space?
 
Socrtease said:
Ok I missed the highlighted part. So what you are saying is that according to the bible god is limited on his ability to see the future. So he cannot violate laws of time and space?
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I think that he can transcend time and space and if He chose to could plan out our lives, but chooses not to because He values free will above all else. Yeah, even more than human pain and suffering.

That's why I think the Constitution is so important, because it acknowledges the fact the God gave man freedom, or free will, and that man in turn set up a basic methodology, through limited government, for making sure that he'd have as much freedom as possible.
 
Mark 8:31 shows that god has knowledge of the future and that he gave that knowledge to Yeshua.

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."

This was something Jesus knew before it happened, he knew what the priests and the scribes would do, in the exersize of their free will, before they did it. That knowledge was divine and it was knowledge of future acts. That is what I keep trying to say, just because god KNOWS what people are going to do does not mean he is the cause.
 
Socrtease said:
Mark 8:31 shows that god has knowledge of the future and that he gave that knowledge to Yeshua.

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."

This was something Jesus knew before it happened, he knew what the priests and the scribes would do, in the exersize of their free will, before they did it. That knowledge was divine and it was knowledge of future acts. That is what I keep trying to say, just because god KNOWS what people are going to do does not mean he is the cause.
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The way I read that is that God has an intimate knowledge of what man will do, not that he controls every aspect of it.

For instance I know generally how my son will react if I say, take his car keys away from him. That doesn't mean that I have control over his subsequent behavior.
 
Jesus KNEW Judas would betray him. He KNEW Peter would deny him, and how many times and what time of the day.
 
Southern Man said:
And they had free will to do what they did. They weren't robots.
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absolutely. Now, why, if god knew that Adam and Eve were GOING to eat the apple, did he put the tree where they could be disobedient. That makes no sense. He KNEW they were going to eat the apple just as Jesus knew that before the Rooster crowed Peter would deny him three times. Why not just create them and forget the garden. He KNEW they were going to disobey.
 
Socrtease said:
absolutely. Now, why, if god knew that Adam and Eve were GOING to eat the apple, did he put the tree where they could be disobedient. That makes no sense. He KNEW they were going to eat the apple just as Jesus knew that before the Rooster crowed Peter would deny him three times. Why not just create them and forget the garden. He KNEW they were going to disobey.
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And you KNOW this how?

Adam and Eve didn't have to "eat the apple".
 
Socrtease said:
I know this because the bible has ample evidence that god is omniscient. He can see the future. So he KNEW they were going to disobey them but set them up for it anyway.
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You've shown your ability to misinterpret in the two passages that you quoted, so my guess is that you did that for the remainder. Try reading with an open mind next time. Or take a Bible Study class.
 
Southern Man said:
I believe He can "interfere". Otherwise I'd be a deist.
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I didn't say he COULDN'T interfere, I only said he doesn't have to. There is nothing to interpret in Jesus forseeing his betrayal and his denial, and he is so precise with that it can only be seen as knowledge of the future. And your interpretation of Jeremiah is a far greater reach than is mine.
 
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