Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values

PoliTalker said:
Hello cawacko,

Capitalists hold outsized power in the USA. They wield it chiefly for the purpose of increasing their own wealth with too little consideration for the condition or future of the nation. Too many are thinking only of themselves; too few are dedicated to America. These considerations must be balanced with one another. The balance is presently skewed towards power and wealth accumulation. The rewards of shrewd capitalism are personal wealth. The rewards of shrewd socialism are social advancement and improvement of the human condition. The motivation of one is greed, the other - altruism.

I find it amusing that many capitalists claim capitalism has produced the highest standard of living than ever before; yet socialism is actually responsible for much of that. They often cite how the poor have many modern conveniences; but routinely fail to recognize that socialism, not capitalism, has raised the standard of living of America's poor to the current level.
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Sorry sir but socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried including the murder and oppression of tens of millions. There is no argument for socialism over capitalism. Now if you want to argue what's wrong with crony capitalism and how special interest groups have helped corrupt our markets I'm open
 
cawacko said:
Like I said your concern should be crony capitalism. If you have 20 minutes listen to this NPR Planet Money podcast on how are economy is rigged. These two gentlemen wrote a book about it. One is a libertarian and the other a liberal. They came together because they both recognize the danger it presents.


https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/03/09/592393083/episode-829-rigging-the-economy


And here's another longer podcast with the same authors and it delves into how crony capitalism exacerbates income inequality


http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/12/brink_lindsey_a.html
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I appreciate the effort, CA...but I prefer not to listen to long podcasts. If this is in written form, I'll read it.

As regards "crony capitalism" however, if EVERY instance of crony capitalism were magically to disappear...we would still be left with CAPITALISM...and whether you (or the people in those podcasts) are willing to acknowledge it...unfettered capitalism is still a problem.

Let me be sure I make myself clear: I understand the problem with crony capitalism...and it is an onerous one. But the underlying problem is with capitalism the way we are practicing it here in America right now. Crony capitalism could not exist without the capitalism we allow in general.

Let me be even more clear by echoing your words: Your concern should be unfettered capitalism.
 
Frank Apisa said:
CA...I don't want to drag this out...but the point is important.

You said we are not close to unfettered capitalism.

I mentioned that we are closer than anyone else.

WE ARE.

I am not sure what how much closer we would have to get to be "close to it"...but I do not want to get any closer...and like Poli...I want to distance ourselves further from it.

Whether we are (what you consider) close to it or not...we are too goddam close as far as I am concerned.

I will grant, for instance, that OUR "poor" are MUCH better off than the poor of other countries, but I still abhor the fact that many of OUR poor work FULL TIME...and still are not able to live a truly decent life in a country of IMMENSE WEALTH.

Nobody in this country our to have to work multiple jobs in order just to make ends meet! NOBODY.

And that situation will only be remediated by incorporating economic ideas from outside the capitalistic continuum.

Let's discuss it. Poli has given us a forum for doing so.
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they are memes


they have no flesh on those ideas
 
cawacko said:
Sorry sir but socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried including the murder and oppression of tens of millions. There is no argument for socialism over capitalism. Now if you want to argue what's wrong with crony capitalism and how special interest groups have helped corrupt our markets I'm open
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Hello cawacko,

Thank you for your civil post. I greatly appreciate respectful discourse.

I am not arguing one over the other. I endorse a proper balance between the two. We don't have to choose one or the other. Obviously socialism has not only worked very well in many nations, but it continues to serve vast populations. And guess what. Socialism has been very good for the USA! Capitalism has brought us much. Capitalism is a wonderful producer of innovation and product. What to do? The answer is simple. Blend them. Seek out the best of each and try to suppress the worst of each. Neither is best, neither should be eliminated.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello evince,
Hello Politalker,
Both parties are highly hypocritical. Republicans are far too idealistic about family values to realize that their support of unfettered capitalism is precisely what is tearing American families apart.
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why do you blame the Democratic party for what the republicans have done?
 
Frank Apisa said:
I appreciate the effort, CA...but I prefer not to listen to long podcasts. If this is in written form, I'll read it.

As regards "crony capitalism" however, if EVERY instance of crony capitalism were magically to disappear...we would still be left with CAPITALISM...and whether you (or the people in those podcasts) are willing to acknowledge it...unfettered capitalism is still a problem.

Let me be sure I make myself clear: I understand the problem with crony capitalism...and it is an onerous one. But the underlying problem is with capitalism the way we are practicing it here in America right now. Crony capitalism could not exist without the capitalism we allow in general.

Let me be even more clear by echoing your words: Your concern should be unfettered capitalism.
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Hello Frank,

Cawacko has a point. Crony capitalism takes a terrible toll on our society. Our Constitution does not prevent that. It is wishful thinking to hope for that to go away. So we have to have socialism to offset the bad of crony capitalism.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I appreciate the effort, CA...but I prefer not to listen to long podcasts. If this is in written form, I'll read it.

As regards "crony capitalism" however, if EVERY instance of crony capitalism were magically to disappear...we would still be left with CAPITALISM...and whether you (or the people in those podcasts) are willing to acknowledge it...unfettered capitalism is still a problem.

Let me be sure I make myself clear: I understand the problem with crony capitalism...and it is an onerous one. But the underlying problem is with capitalism the way we are practicing it here in America right now. Crony capitalism could not exist without the capitalism we allow in general.

Let me be even more clear by echoing your words: Your concern should be unfettered capitalism.
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All I can do is repeat the facts. We don't have anything close to unfettered capitalism. Whether it's for political or ideological reasons you've identified the wrong problem. In fact we've been moving away from unfettered capitalism. You have to understand how markets and competition work. Big firms love regulation that keeps out competition. They don't want unfettered markets.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello CFM,

Welcome to my Ignore List.

If you had made the same exact post without saying anything derogatory about me I would engage in a mutually respectful conversation.

You've made some valid points but I won't be discussing them with you. I am into civil discourse. This will be your one and only endorphin rush out of me.

And that goes for anyone else who feels the need to vent their frustrations with the world on me.

Please identify yourselves by flaming on me and you can join CFM. btw, my rules are more strict than the site rules. When I place a poster on Ignore, it is permanent.
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FYI, there is an Above Plain Politics Forum, where people get banned for making personal insults. However, you need to request permission from a mod to post there.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/forumdisplay.php?39-Above-Plain-Politics-Forum
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello cawacko,

Thank you for you civil post. I greatly appreciate respectful discourse.

I am not arguing one over the other. I endorse a proper balance between the two. We don't have to choose one or the other. Obviously socialism has not only worked very well in many nations, but it continues to serve vast populations. And guess what. Socialism has been very good for the USA! Capitalism has brought us much. Capitalism is a wonderful producer of innovation and product. What to do? The answer is simple. Blend them. Seek out the best of each and try to suppress the worst of each. Neither is best, neither should be eliminated.
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We all have to stop thinking of it in zero sum terms.

An amalgam of some sort is what is going to work.

And...if not socialism...anything outside of the unfettered capitalistic system would be of benefit.

This is particularly important right now, because (as you pointed out earlier) the object of capitalism will always be highest profit possible...without consideration for social problems caused by maximizing profits.

Well...right now the easiest way to achieve maximum profits is by cutting the one cost that always is the first to be cut...LABOR.

We are in a technological atmosphere that is making HUMAN LABOR less and less valuable. Combine that with the thoughts contained in the two previous sentences...and we have a recipe for disaster for humans.
 
Frank Apisa said:
We all have to stop thinking of it in zero sum terms.

An amalgam of some sort is what is going to work.

And...if not socialism...anything outside of the unfettered capitalistic system would be of benefit.

This is particularly important right now, because (as you pointed out earlier) the object of capitalism will always be highest profit possible...without consideration for social problems caused by maximizing profits.

Well...right now the easiest way to achieve maximum profits is by cutting the one cost that always is the first to be cut...LABOR.

We are in a technological atmosphere that is making HUMAN LABOR less and less valuable. Combine that with the thoughts contained in the two previous sentences...and we have a recipe for disaster for humans.
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Is there a country that you would like us to be modeled after?
 
cawacko said:
Is there a country that you would like us to be modeled after?
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No.

I'd like us to be the model for others...after we bring the capitalistic system into reasonable balance.

Although I might say that China...now that it has integrated some capitalism with its socialism...seems to be moving apace.
 
Frank Apisa said:
No.

I'd like us to be the model for others...after we bring the capitalistic system into reasonable balance.

Although I might say that China...now that it has integrated some capitalism with its socialism...seems to be moving apace.
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China has zero democracy. Is that what you want? What you're asking for is us to be more like western European countries and their economies. We've seen what that does.
 
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