Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values

PoliTalker said:
Hello Frank,

Cawacko has a point. Crony capitalism takes a terrible toll on our society. Our Constitution does not prevent that. It is wishful thinking to hope for that to go away. So we have to have socialism to offset the bad of crony capitalism.
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first we need to regulate our capitalism to not eat itself alive
 
cawacko said:
China has zero democracy. Is that what you want? What you're asking for is us to be more like western European countries and their economies. We've seen what that does.
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your asking us to be a system that has never in the history of mankind worked like you claim it does
 
Frank Apisa said:
We all have to stop thinking of it in zero sum terms.

An amalgam of some sort is what is going to work.

And...if not socialism...anything outside of the unfettered capitalistic system would be of benefit.

This is particularly important right now, because (as you pointed out earlier) the object of capitalism will always be highest profit possible...without consideration for social problems caused by maximizing profits.

Well...right now the easiest way to achieve maximum profits is by cutting the one cost that always is the first to be cut...LABOR.

We are in a technological atmosphere that is making HUMAN LABOR less and less valuable. Combine that with the thoughts contained in the two previous sentences...and we have a recipe for disaster for humans.
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Hello Frank,

Very good points.

I see a future where there will be insufficient employment for the available work force. Technology has raised us to the level that all do not need to toil all day every day to meet our needs. The amount of labor hours time needed to meet our needs will continue to drop. Capitalism would have this give all the spoils to those who own the technology and leave none for those who cannot find work. As this evolution progresses we will need to utilize socialism to a greater extent.

The future will inevitably involve a universal basic income paid for by taxing the rich. Before that can be realized, the mindsets of those who blame the poor for their own condition must be changed to the degree that they will be over-ridden. I don't see any way around this. Especially as we develop Artificial Intelligence and machines so smart they can do nearly anyone's job.
 
cawacko said:
China has zero democracy. Is that what you want? What you're asking for is us to be more like western European countries and their economies. We've seen what that does.
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We can discuss this calmly and intelligently...or we can turn it into the usual JPP fare.

Why not give the "calmly and intelligently" way a try.

China has zero democracy.
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China does not have "zero democracy." It has much, much less than any of us would want for us. Anyway, more democracy IS a problem they'll have to deal with.


Is that what you want?
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No.


What you're asking for is us to be more like western European countries and their economies. We've seen what that does.
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At no point have I said that.

You asked if there were any countries I would like us to model after...AND I SAID NO.

Now you are telling me that I want us to be more like western European countries and their economies.

I said, "NO." I didn't say, "Like the western European countries."

I'd like us to build something worth emulating...and have them model their countries after us.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Frank,

Cawacko has a point. Crony capitalism takes a terrible toll on our society. Our Constitution does not prevent that. It is wishful thinking to hope for that to go away. So we have to have socialism to offset the bad of crony capitalism.
Click to expand...

CA does have a point about crony capitalism...and I recognize and acknowledged that.

But capitalism itself is the major problem here.
 
evince said:
go get reprogramed

this is a new moment
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Wouldn't it be better if those that relied on someone else's hard work to support themselves actually did something for themselves instead of demanding others be forced to do it?

Those that support socialism do so because they know they can't do for themselves.
 
dear fucking idiot,

the founders had no problem with social programs

they wrote one right into the constitution idiot


fuck you very much
 
cawacko said:
All I can do is repeat the facts. We don't have anything close to unfettered capitalism. Whether it's for political or ideological reasons you've identified the wrong problem. In fact we've been moving away from unfettered capitalism. You have to understand how markets and competition work. Big firms love regulation that keeps out competition. They don't want unfettered markets.
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Okay...we disagree.

I think we are very, very close to unfettered capitalism...and if the current political climate continues to prevail, we will get even closer.

I want us further away from it.

If Big firms love regulations that keeps out competition...we should enact regulations that do not keep out competition.

I do understand how markets and competition work. One of my majors (many years ago) was economics...and I actually worked on Wall Street for a time.

We are screwing ourselves right now...and I want to see it abate.
 
Frank Apisa said:
We can discuss this calmly and intelligently...or we can turn it into the usual JPP fare.

Why not give the "calmly and intelligently" way a try.



China does not have "zero democracy." It has much, much less than any of us would want for us. Anyway, more democracy IS a problem they'll have to deal with.




No.




At no point have I said that.

You asked if there were any countries I would like us to model after...AND I SAID NO.

Now you are telling me that I want us to be more like western European countries and their economies.

I said, "NO." I didn't say, "Like the western European countries."

I'd like us to build something worth emulating...and have them model their countries after us.
Click to expand...

China has a communist government setup and state run capitalism. They have opened up their markets and we have seen hundreds of millions of Chinese leave poverty over the past three to four decades. It's been a remarkable achievement.

Western European countries blend markets and socialism (loosely). It's essentially what you are asking for in the U.S. I know you are saying you want it done in a different way but there's not a lot of variance in there.
 
Sirthinksalot said:
FYI, there is an Above Plain Politics Forum, where people get banned for making personal insults. However, you need to request permission from a mod to post there.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/forumdisplay.php?39-Above-Plain-Politics-Forum
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Hello Sirthinksalot,

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out. But if this is where most of the action is then this is where I wish to post. I have already accepted that I will likely have a large Ignore List. And I am fine with that. I don't have the time to read drivel. Besides, who could possibly read and keep up with all the posts here? There is so much. My strategy is to filter out the flamers and be left with the highest quality views with which to interact.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Sirthinksalot,

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out. But if this is where most of the action is then this is where I wish to post. I have already accepted that I will likely have a large Ignore List. And I am fine with that. I don't have the time to read drivel. Besides, who could possibly read and keep up with all the posts here? There is so much. My strategy is to filter out the flamers and be left with the highest quality views with which to interact.
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but you did not ban me correct?
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay...we disagree.

I think we are very, very close to unfettered capitalism...and if the current political climate continues to prevail, we will get even closer.

I want us further away from it.

If Big firms love regulations that keeps out competition...we should enact regulations that do not keep out competition.

I do understand how markets and competition work. One of my majors (many years ago) was economics...and I actually worked on Wall Street for a time.

We are screwing ourselves right now...and I want to see it abate.
Click to expand...
What would those be? The podcasts I gave you for instance speak a lot about the various licenses people need to work in so many jobs. They are ostensibly to "protect" the public but in reality many are supported by those in the field and are anti-competitive measures to keep people out. You know who gets hurt most by them? Lower income people. They are a barrier to entry for many people.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay...we disagree.

I think we are very, very close to unfettered capitalism...and if the current political climate continues to prevail, we will get even closer.

I want us further away from it.

If Big firms love regulations that keeps out competition...we should enact regulations that do not keep out competition.

I do understand how markets and competition work. One of my majors (many years ago) was economics...and I actually worked on Wall Street for a time.

We are screwing ourselves right now...and I want to see it abate.
Click to expand...

Look at housing in many markets. We have excessive zoning and land use regulations that prevent new development to the benefit of current home owners and the detriment of everyone else. Look at places like Texas with much more liberal land use laws. Housing can be built when prices start to rise and it helps keep costs down. Place like where I live in California the regulations make housing so expensive it keeps out lower income and young people starting out their careers. We could go into way more details of these examples if needed.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Frank,

Very good points.

I see a future where there will be insufficient employment for the available work force. Technology has raised us to the level that all do not need to toil all day every day to meet our needs. The amount of labor hours time needed to meet our needs will continue to drop. Capitalism would have this give all the spoils to those who own the technology and leave none for those who cannot find work. As this evolution progresses we will need to utilize socialism to a greater extent.

The future will inevitably involve a universal basic income paid for by taxing the rich. Before that can be realized, the mindsets of those who blame the poor for their own condition must be changed to the degree that they will be over-ridden. I don't see any way around this. Especially as we develop Artificial Intelligence and machines so smart they can do nearly anyone's job.
Click to expand...

We are five by five on all of this. Perhaps this is why I expect that the needed change will only come at expense to civil peace.

The "trickle down" notion is a joke...and "thems" that have are not interested in anything trickling anywhere other than into their own bank accounts.

But the change will come...although an old goat like me will probably not be around to see it.


We've got lots more to talk about here. I want to take is slow. I've been on this bandwagon for a very long time...and "slow" is a major ingredient in the explanations.

I expect to soon go to an expansion of your, "The future will inevitably involve a universal basic income paid for by taxing the rich."

I think it has to go further than that. I suggest it may involve eliminating the ethos of, "One must earn one's living."

But, as I said...slowly!
 
cawacko said:
China has a communist government setup and state run capitalism. They have opened up their markets and we have seen hundreds of millions of Chinese leave poverty over the past three to four decades. It's been a remarkable achievement.

Western European countries blend markets and socialism (loosely). It's essentially what you are asking for in the U.S. I know you are saying you want it done in a different way but there's not a lot of variance in there.
Click to expand...

I appreciate what you are saying, CA...and was of a similar opinion for a while.

I made adjustments to my thinking.

I suspect there is a LOT more variance than you suppose.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello CFM,

Welcome to my Ignore List.

If you had made the same exact post without saying anything derogatory about me I would engage in a mutually respectful conversation.

You've made some valid points but I won't be discussing them with you. I am into civil discourse. This will be your one and only endorphin rush out of me.

And that goes for anyone else who feels the need to vent their frustrations with the world on me.

Please identify yourselves by flaming on me and you can join CFM. btw, my rules are more strict than the site rules. When I place a poster on Ignore, it is permanent.
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Then your cowardice is permanent, you fucking pussy.
 
cawacko said:
What would those be? The podcasts I gave you for instance speak a lot about the various licenses people need to work in so many jobs. They are ostensibly to "protect" the public but in reality many are supported by those in the field and are anti-competitive measures to keep people out. You know who gets hurt most by them? Lower income people. They are a barrier to entry for many people.
Click to expand...

I'll get to this more as my themes develop.

This thread belongs to Poli...and I'm holding back a bit...rather than step on his presentation.
 
Frank Apisa said:
We are five by five on all of this. Perhaps this is why I expect that the needed change will only come at expense to civil peace.

The "trickle down" notion is a joke...and "thems" that have are not interested in anything trickling anywhere other than into their own bank accounts.

But the change will come...although an old goat like me will probably not be around to see it.


We've got lots more to talk about here. I want to take is slow. I've been on this bandwagon for a very long time...and "slow" is a major ingredient in the explanations.

I expect to soon go to an expansion of your, "The future will inevitably involve a universal basic income paid for by taxing the rich."

I think it has to go further than that. I suggest it may involve eliminating the ethos of, "One must earn one's living."

But, as I said...slowly!
Click to expand...

If the "thems" made it, what makes you think the ones that didn't make it should get any?
 
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