Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values

[PoliTalker]

but you did not ban me correct?

Hello evince,

I have made a very rare exception in your case due to your personal appeal in a PM, and since I am new here and we don't know each other. You are now on probation. Flame me again and it is a one-way permanent ticket to my Iggy List.

My normal handling of being flamed is instant and permanent Ignore. I just don't want to waste time reading blaming/venting posts. I'm looking for intellectual exchange of ideas and thoughts. I see what goes on around here. I fully expect to have a very large Iglist. I also see some very intelligent and respectful posts. That's all I want to see. I shall be making strong use of the filters provided to achieve that. Nothing personal. Each of us has the tools to customize our own experience here. I prefer not to devolve into nastiness. That's all.

 

[CFM]

Hello evince,

I have made a very rare exception in your case due to your personal appeal in a PM, and since I am new here and we don't know each other. You are now on probation. Flame me again and it is a one-way permanent ticket to my Iggy List.

My normal handling of being flamed is instant and permanent Ignore. I just don't want to waste time reading blaming/venting posts. I'm looking for intellectual exchange of ideas and thoughts. I see what goes on around here. I fully expect to have a very large Iglist. I also see some very intelligent and respectful posts. That's all I want to see. I shall be making strong use of the filters provided to achieve that. Nothing personal. Each of us has the tools to customize our own experience here. I prefer not to devolve into nastiness. That's all.

It appears as if evince finally found someone to grab her pussy after months and months of begging.

 

[Nordberg]

Capitalism as we practice it is flawed from its start. We accept that corporations should maximize profits. There should be a codicil saying as long as we do no harm. The max thing forces us to have a huge regulation industry. They will pollute for money. They will allow people to get sick and die.The government is the only institution that can stand up to corporations. However now we have the wealthy buying regulators. They lobby to slash the rights of the people to a clean environment. Corporations own the Republican party. They are trying to buy the Dems too.The future looks grim.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Capitalism as we practice it is flawed from its start. We accept that corporations should maximize profits. There should be a codicil saying as long as we do no harm. The max thing forces us to have a huge regulation industry. They will pollute for money. They will allow people to get sick and die.The government is the only institution that can stand up to corporations. However now we have the wealthy buying regulators. They lobby to slash the rights of the people to a clean environment. Corporations own the Republican party. They are trying to buy the Dems too.The future looks grim.

I agree that it looks grim.

But I am thinking that it will have to get a bit grimmer...before the change that is needed comes to pass.

It will not be a peaceful transition.

 

[cawacko]

Sorry gentlemen you are so down on life but having lived three quarters of a century I'd think y'all more than anyone else can see the progress the world and the U.S. has made in many many different ways

 

[Ross Dolan]

Sorry gentlemen you are so down on life but having lived three quarters of a century I'd think y'all more than anyone else can see the progress the world and the U.S. has made in many many different ways

I'm 81, CA...and consider myself one of the luckiest people on the planet.

I'm happy with my lot in life...and appreciate that America is the wonderful place it is.

If you think it cannot be better...we simply disagree.

I think it can be MUCH better...and advocate in that direction.

I think the world can be MUCH better...and advocate for that also.

I see a day...very soon...where it simply will not make sense to pay humans to do the kind of work most humans can do. Something has to be done to deal with that...and I am the kind who wants to deal with problems before they become dire.

 

[Ralph]

American families are clearly on the decline. Divorce rates and out-of-wedlock child birth rates are up. Capitalism has played a crucial role in this evolution.

Decades ago, it took just one income to support a family. That included a 40 hour week, full health care, vacations, savings and retirement. Unions won most of those family-enhancing struggles. This represented a bit of a loss for capitalism as many of those family-beneficial victories came at the expense of additional profits for the richest.

But capitalism relentlessly seeks to maximize the profitability of any situation. A war on unions and worker rights was the response from capitalism to all those family-enhancing detriments to profitability. Good jobs with family-supporting benefits have routinely been downsized, offshored, mechanized, computerized, and broken into several part time positions with no benefits.

The traditional male/female roles where he works, brings home the bacon, and she is the home maker have now been relegated to the rich who can afford nannies, cooks, gardeners, etc.

Family values have become luxuries only affordable to the rich. Capitalism is the culprit.

Clearly, in order to make America great again, families are going to need something more than empty words of support.

Capitalism is a wonderful and powerful wealth-generating tool, but it is also dangerous to American family values. The lesson is apparent: Capitalism must be balanced with the proper amount of socialism. Capitalism is like a powerful engine. The engine of capitalism, without socialism as a governor, and left to run at wide open throttle, is bound to blow up. Our challenge is not a choice between capitalism and socialism, it is clearly one of how to blend the two.

Our young nation is at a point where we are falling behind the other older nations which have already figured this out. It is now time for us to accept this challenge and show that we can do it better.

Capitalism HELL! Its leftist socialism that has produced a generation of degenerate, fatherless, welfare trolls. The left has brought us open queerness, bisexuality, adultery....etc., as being mainstream acceptable behavior. The left has replaced the father with Big Brother.....brought us the sexual revolution, brought us porn and called it art and free speech, and violence piped into our homes where they leave their children to be instructed at least 9 hrs. a day by Hollywood and the modern gaming industry that promotes the ANTI-HERO and warfare as a game.....an industry that has our children running out into dangerous streets...preoccupied with finding an imagined pocket monster for points in order to spawn more wasted time.

Yep....its capitalism that is to blame, the left is blameless.

Note: Whatever the LEFT accuses the Right of doing......THEY HAVE JUST DONE IT. Case in point......Russian Collusion where the DNC and the Clinton Machine are the only place where actual evidence of Russian Collusion exists in an objective fashion. LMAO

Was it Capitalism that witnessed the rolls of welfare rise drastically under Obama? Reduced the work force to its lowest in over 50 years? Of course not it was Obama and the left attempting to fundamentally Transform the United States of America.....and when his plans were put into action and accomplished just a little of the promised CHANGE......TODAY you blame it on the Right? Priceless.

 

[PoliTalker]

Sorry gentlemen you are so down on life but having lived three quarters of a century I'd think y'all more than anyone else can see the progress the world and the U.S. has made in many many different ways

Hello cawacko,

You make a good point but bad call on interpreting an outlook on life from a forum post. Wonderful progress has been made, yes. Fantastic things. An aware individual is able to know of bad things, discuss bad things, and still enjoy life. For every thing there is a season... 3/4 of a century has made you wise. Perhaps you remember this song which came to mind: Turn Turn Turn

 

[cawacko]

I'm 81, CA...and consider myself one of the luckiest people on the planet.

I'm happy with my lot in life...and appreciate that America is the wonderful place it is.

If you think it cannot be better...we simply disagree.

I think it can be MUCH better...and advocate in that direction.

I think the world can be MUCH better...and advocate for that also.

I see a day...very soon...where it simply will not make sense to pay humans to do the kind of work most humans can do. Something has to be done to deal with that...and I am the kind who wants to deal with problems before they become dire.

Of course things can, and will, get better. That statement reminds me of the person who said we didn't need a patent office anymore because everything that could be invented already has been. With technology, AI, etc. etc. we are making unbelievable progress. Just look at the number of people brought out of extreme poverty (thanks capitalism) in the past 25 years. Hundreds of millions. It's been amazing.

You have fear of technological changes instead of looking at the opportunity it provides.

 

[PoliTalker]

Capitalism HELL! Its leftist socialism that has produced a generation of degenerate, fatherless, welfare trolls. The left has brought us open queerness, bisexuality, adultery....etc., as being mainstream acceptable behavior. The left has replaced the father with Big Brother.....brought us the sexual revolution, brought us porn and called it art and free speech, and violence piped into our homes where they leave their children to be instructed at least 9 hrs. a day by Hollywood and the modern gaming industry that promotes the ANTI-HERO and warfare as a game.....an industry that has our children running out into dangerous streets...preoccupied with finding an imagined pocket monster for points in order to spawn more wasted time.

Yep....its capitalism that is to blame, the left is blameless.

Note: Whatever the LEFT accuses the Right of doing......THEY HAVE JUST DONE IT. Case in point......Russian Collusion where the DNC and the Clinton Machine are the only place where actual evidence of Russian Collusion exists in an objective fashion. LMAO

Was it Capitalism that witnessed the rolls of welfare rise drastically under Obama? Reduced the work force to its lowest in over 50 years? Of course not it was Obama and the left attempting to fundamentally Transform the United States of America.....and when his plans were put into action and accomplished just a little of the promised CHANGE......TODAY you blame it on the Right? Priceless.

Hello and greetings Ralph,

Thanks for the reply. I disagree, but I value your right to express your view. Do you like the low prices at Walmart? How could that be possible without the dole to support so many of those workers? Why, if Walmart didn't get that corporate welfare, they might have to pay workers higher wages and raise prices. Government assistance programs have allowed families to stay together and many to work their way out of poverty and get off the dole. Sure, there are some who game the system and have bad attitudes, but there are also many who have left poverty and joined the middle class, even become rich, after getting government assistance when they most needed it.

I'm not taking your bait to go off-Topic. There are plenty of threads to discuss the differences between liberal and conservative ideology.

It has been the pressures of trying to get by in an increasingly challenging economy which have impacted American families. Mostly on the poor. Look at the rich. The rich have a lower divorce rate and a lower rate of out-of-wedlock child birth. Do you think that is all due to morals? It is because of financial security. When the home budget allows cooks, nannies and stay-at-home moms (as was once possible for the middle class) families are not under such tremendous stress.

Capitalism has made many very rich. Often that has occurred because the receivers of wealth are the beneficiaries of class-war wealth extraction. Where a family budget allows home ownership and stock market investment, the benefactors of that wealth creation are also part of wealth extraction. Anyone with holdings in the health insurance industry, for instance, is in part financing a huge wealth extraction machine. The health industry makes money by bleeding people dry of their life savings in return for saving their life. And sometimes they don't even do that, but they are willing to take everything an individual has anyway. We still have a great number of bankruptcies due to health issues. Our health care system is far from perfect as most will agree. Nations which do not treat health care as a profit-generator for the super-rich have better health care outcomes, live longer lives, and have more cohesive family values.

It is the pressures of capitalism which cause most middle class families to be two-earner families, leaving the kids on their own. If they are placated by violent movies and games, that's just capitalism making a buck on destroying values. Where are the parents who might monitor the kids? Oh yeah. Both on the job working overtime to try to keep up. Americans work more hours than most socialist countries. Q: Why do Americans work so much? A: They are afraid to not be their best on the job so they can avoid getting laid off the next time the axe swings.

Actually, capitalism did put all those extra entries on the rolls of the dole under President Obama. Without the heavy hand of strong government market regulation, capitalism shows it's ugly head in wild market swings between bull and bear. We use regulation to try to smooth that out because it surely won't happen without some socialism. Republicans killed Dodd-Frank which led to the Great Recession. Capitalism was there the whole way to soak the taxpayers for a big bail out to pay for executive bonuses and vacations. Did you think Occupy Wall Street was a fluke? That was the populace expressing anger at capitalism. That anger has not subsided. It has grown. That anger represents a sleeping giant in our political landscape. Bernie came very close to being elected. That should send a message. Ten years ago he would have been a non-starter.

 

[Nordberg]

Truth is corporations fight capitalism to the death. Back when we had it, it was not so bad. We actually had competition. Companies had price wars. They spent money on product improvement. They offered excellent service. Now we have morphed into oligopoly. We have few corporations dominate industries. Like Cable. The prices are essentially identical.The products are the same . Service is abysmal. They can get away with it if they all offer the same shit. They just divide the country into zones.

These oligopolies were created by mergers and buyouts. The regulation agencies were silent. The same for banking, credit card companies, grocery stores, department stores and gasoline.

I am sure Frank remembers gas price wars and the days of great service. But most of you have never seen competition.

 

[Ralph]

Hello and greetings Ralph,

Thanks for the reply. I disagree, but I value your right to express your view. Do you like the low prices at Walmart? How could that be possible without the dole to support so many of those workers? Why, if Walmart didn't get that corporate welfare, they might have to pay workers higher wages and raise prices. Government assistance programs have allowed families to stay together and many to work their way out of poverty and get off the dole. Sure, there are some who game the system and have bad attitudes, but there are also many who have left poverty and joined the middle class, even become rich, after getting government assistance when they most needed it.

I'm not taking your bait to go off-Topic. There are plenty of threads to discuss the differences between liberal and conservative ideology.

It has been the pressures of trying to get by in an increasingly challenging economy which have impacted American families. Mostly on the poor. Look at the rich. The rich have a lower divorce rate and a lower rate of out-of-wedlock child birth. Do you think that is all due to morals? It is because of financial security. When the home budget allows cooks, nannies and stay-at-home moms (as was once possible for the middle class) families are not under such tremendous stress.

Capitalism has made many very rich. Often that has occurred because the receivers of wealth are the beneficiaries of class-war wealth extraction. Where a family budget allows home ownership and stock market investment, the benefactors of that wealth creation are also part of wealth extraction. Anyone with holdings in the health insurance industry, for instance, is in part financing a huge wealth extraction machine. The health industry makes money by bleeding people dry of their life savings in return for saving their life. And sometimes they don't even do that, but they are willing to take everything an individual has anyway. We still have a great number of bankruptcies due to health issues. Our health care system is far from perfect as most will agree. Nations which do not treat health care as a profit-generator for the super-rich have better health care outcomes, live longer lives, and have more cohesive family values.

It is the pressures of capitalism which cause most middle class families to be two-earner families, leaving the kids on their own. If they are placated by violent movies and games, that's just capitalism making a buck on destroying values. Where are the parents who might monitor the kids? Oh yeah. Both on the job working overtime to try to keep up. Americans work more hours than most socialist countries. Q: Why do Americans work so much? A: They are afraid to not be their best on the job so they can avoid getting laid off the next time the axe swings.

Actually, capitalism did put all those extra entries on the rolls of the dole under President Obama. Without the heavy hand of strong government market regulation, capitalism shows it's ugly head in wild market swings between bull and bear. We use regulation to try to smooth that out because it surely won't happen without some socialism. Republicans killed Dodd-Frank which led to the Great Recession. Capitalism was there the whole way to soak the taxpayers for a big bail out to pay for executive bonuses and vacations. Did you think Occupy Wall Street was a fluke? That was the populace expressing anger at capitalism. That anger has not subsided. It has grown. That anger represents a sleeping giant in our political landscape. Bernie came very close to being elected. That should send a message. Ten years ago he would have been a non-starter.

Walmart? Flea Market crapola? US flags made in China or Shoes made in communist sweatshops by 8 year olds endorsed by the NBA...etc.? It was the Collusion with Big Government (Bill and Hillary Clinton, and Sam Walton) that purchased the NAFTA deal that resulted in Cheap Knock Off imitations of Name Brand goods that has resulted in the one sided trade imbalance where the American Workers are paying the price for your cheap left wing products.

Its not Capitalism that is the culprit but Big Government "overregulation" that resulted in the NEW NORMAL claimed by BHO were the GDP stagnated at an average of 1.9%. True capitalism is the engine that drives the US economy not some knockoff overregulated "left wing" ideology CHRONIE CAPITALISM WHERE BIG BROTHER GETS TO PICK WINNERS AND LOSERS AND DICTATE WHO IS TO BIG TO FAIL.

In other words.....Keynesian Economics did not work during the 30s and it sure as hell did not work in the 2000s under both Bush and Obama. The problem with this nation the fact its being led around by the nose by people who know jack shit about the private sector.

As Jeff Foxworthy declares: "We live in a country founded by Geniuses but run by IDIOTS......IF" You can get arrested for hunting without a license but not for entering the country illegally.

If your child has to get your signed permission to go on a field trip or take an OTC aspirin.....BUT NOT TO GET AN ABORTION....YOU MIGHT HAVE IDIOTS FOR LEADERS.

If you must show your ID to board a plan, cash a check, buy liquor, or check out a library book......but consider it "intimidation" to be asked to ID yourself before you exercise the greatest right allowed in this nation......VOTING for who gets to RUN THIS NATION as its leaders, you have idiots for leaders.

Or.....if a government wants to prevent well adjusted, stable individuals from owning firearms that hold 10 rounds in their weapons, but think its OK to sell F-16 fighter jets to crazy new terror backed leaders in Egypt.....you have a nation founded by geniuses but run by idiots.

Or if you live in a liberal city where you can purchase 2, 3 or more 16 ounce colas with sugar....but you can't purchase 1 24 ounce drink because the sugar might make you fat....you live in a city run by idiots.

Or....if you go to an airport and an 80 yr. old white Christian grandmaw is singled out of the pack along with a 3 year old in a wheel chair for "strip searches" so the employees can fill their quota for the flight....but refuse to search below the neck line of a 20 something female Muslim because of her faith.....you might live in a nation run by idiots.


My favorite.....concerning IDIOT LEADERS. If you live in a country where the leaders declare the best way to "eradicate" Trillions of dollars of DEBT is to borrow Trillions more.....you live in a country of IDIOT LEADERS.

More? Your 7 year old can be suspended from school because he called his teacher "cute"........but next week the same school provides a platform for a speaker talking about accepting sexual diversity and how some students have 2 daddies or 2 mommies.....your school system is run by idiots.

If HARD WORK and SUCCESS are met by higher taxes, more regulations and government intrusion....while NOT WORKING is rewarded with cell phones, housing assistance, food stamps, money, babysitting services...etc., you are governed by IDIOTS.




YOU MIGHT LIVE IN A NATION FOUNDED BY GENIUSIS BUT RUN BY LEFTISTS IF.........the plan is to make incentives for people to work by paying them not to look for work by granting them a 99 week paid vacation.....or, you pay your home mortgage without missing a single payment faithfully while denying yourself the extras that make life easier such Big Screen TVs another car..phone..etc., .....while you neighbor (a minority) purchased a home that his income could never pay back on time....goes out and purchases Iphones, huge tvs, new cars, etc......but allowed his home to get to the point of being in foreclosure.....and YOUR TAX DOLLARS bail him out .....you might live in a nation run by leftist idiot leaders.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Of course things can, and will, get better. That statement reminds me of the person who said we didn't need a patent office anymore because everything that could be invented already has been. With technology, AI, etc. etc. we are making unbelievable progress. Just look at the number of people brought out of extreme poverty (thanks capitalism) in the past 25 years. Hundreds of millions. It's been amazing.

You have fear of technological changes instead of looking at the opportunity it provides.

I have no fear of technological changes...and not only do I LOOK at the opportunities it provides, I use those opportunities to my personal advantage every day of my life.

I am merely calling attention to something that should be obvious.

We need enough decent paying jobs for everyone who needs and wants one. The machines are much more productive...and much cheaper as a source of MOST of the labor that needs doing. The value of human labor...especially the "human labor" most humans can provide...is going down, down, down.

One of the tenets of capitalism is to get EVERY factor of production at its cheapest cost. Labor is the one factor of production most vulnerable to the negativity of that tenet.

We simply have to find a way to insure that people are able to live a decent life...considering those circumstances.

I think you, and folk like you, are giving that problem short shrift.

 

[PoliTalker]

Truth is corporations fight capitalism to the death. Back when we had it, it was not so bad. We actually had competition. Companies had price wars. They spent money on product improvement. They offered excellent service. Now we have morphed into oligopoly. We have few corporations dominate industries. Like Cable. The prices are essentially identical.The products are the same . Service is abysmal. They can get away with it if they all offer the same shit. They just divide the country into zones.

These oligopolies were created by mergers and buyouts. The regulation agencies were silent. The same for banking, credit card companies, grocery stores, department stores and gasoline.

I am sure Frank remembers gas price wars and the days of great service. But most of you have never seen competition.

Hello and greetings Nordberg,

You have a good point. Competition has given way to oligopoly. Internet service is much faster and more widely accessible in South Korea than it is in the USA because of that. Why have so few rich owners been allowed to dominate the US broadcasting and media business? Well, there's crony capitalism for ya. Why can't we get the big money out of government? We could, but that would have to come as a demand from the people. I would gladly support a new Constitutional Amendment to right many of those kinds of wrongs, but who else would? I can't do that by myself. I'm well-informed and ready to fix that, but without millions more demanding the same thing it ain't gonna happen.

But I see that as capitalism doing everything it can, including crony capitalism, to further profiteering for the capitalists.

That can't change until We, The People, rise up and do something together. We, the people, is not capitalism. We, the people, is socialism. Capitalism buys and controls markets, including information markets. The media has morphed into infotainment and opinion-control. A crony-capitalism cutting Amendment cannot happen because of the power of crony capitalism. That tremendous power, which would surely befuddle the argument for a correcting Amendment, *is* capitalism. Crony capitalism, after all, is a part of capitalism. It is an ugly part.

Capitalism is not perfect, and crony capitalism is a perfect example of why not.

The only way we can fight that is with socialism; government control and regulation of markets.

That's why I say we must balance capitalism with socialism to enjoy the best of each while minimizing the worst of each.

 

[CFM]

I have no fear of technological changes...and not only do I LOOK at the opportunities it provides, I use those opportunities to my personal advantage every day of my life.

I am merely calling attention to something that should be obvious.

We need enough decent paying jobs for everyone who needs and wants one. The machines are much more productive...and much cheaper as a source of MOST of the labor that needs doing. The value of human labor...especially the "human labor" most humans can provide...is going down, down, down.

One of the tenets of capitalism is to get EVERY factor of production at its cheapest cost. Labor is the one factor of production most vulnerable to the negativity of that tenet.

We simply have to find a way to insure that people are able to live a decent life...considering those circumstances.

I think you, and folk like you, are giving that problem short shrift.

If you want to live a decent life, quit expecting someone else to do for you when things don't go your way.

If I can do what I do cheaper through technology, that's more money for me in my pocket.

 

[PoliTalker]

Of course things can, and will, get better. That statement reminds me of the person who said we didn't need a patent office anymore because everything that could be invented already has been. With technology, AI, etc. etc. we are making unbelievable progress. Just look at the number of people brought out of extreme poverty (thanks capitalism) in the past 25 years. Hundreds of millions. It's been amazing.

You have fear of technological changes instead of looking at the opportunity it provides.

Hello cawacko,

I do not understand why conservatives claim capitalism has brought people out of poverty when in reality that can largely be attributed to both capitalism and socialism. True, the industrial age has generated jobs which created the middle class, but it was progressive taxation and social programs which have made the difference before/after the New Deal for more poor than the industrial age helped. And don't forget that capitalism treated industrial age workers pretty badly until the socialism of unionizing improved their lot significantly.

 

[PoliTalker]

I have no fear of technological changes...and not only do I LOOK at the opportunities it provides, I use those opportunities to my personal advantage every day of my life.

I am merely calling attention to something that should be obvious.

We need enough decent paying jobs for everyone who needs and wants one. The machines are much more productive...and much cheaper as a source of MOST of the labor that needs doing. The value of human labor...especially the "human labor" most humans can provide...is going down, down, down.

One of the tenets of capitalism is to get EVERY factor of production at its cheapest cost. Labor is the one factor of production most vulnerable to the negativity of that tenet.

We simply have to find a way to insure that people are able to live a decent life...considering those circumstances.

I think you, and folk like you, are giving that problem short shrift.

Hello Frank,

So wise! I agree with every single word.

I don't see how two factors can be merged without the consequences of give and take. The two factors are a) Increasing population levels, and b) Industrial automation displacing workers.

In the past, new technologies have generated more jobs to take care of machines and to manage new possibilities presented by using the machines. AI is poised to change that, because the machines will build themselves, service themselves, even design better machine replacements.

One day it will be possible to have a profit-generating corporation completely operated by machines. Every single job will be done by machines. That will be fantastic for the owners of the (very expensive) machines, but will mean the curse of unemployment for human workers. How will society deal with that?

Machines don't pay taxes, generate no revenue.

Without millions of workers getting paychecks and paying taxes the government will go bankrupt, and the would-be workers will starve.

The only solution is to tax the rich heavily to pay for a government-issued 'free' salary for everyone - whether they work or not.

The basic universal income is our only future under this scenario.

Claims that new jobs will magically appear are but wishful thinking.

Capitalism will not be satisfied to destroy the American family and family values with it. Capitalism will destroy our national budget.

Capitalism seeks to maximize profits and minimize costs. Labor is targeted, and taxes are also targeted. Capitalism generates the power for the oligarchy to eliminate labor costs and also eliminate tax payments through crony capitalism. This is all fine and well for the rich, but in so doing they destroy American families and the American government. Capitalism without the governing control of socialism will eventually destroy the United States.

I'm sure many will disagree with this, but I have never heard one convincing argument why this would not occur. These trends are in place, and I don't see anything to stop it.

What candidate could possibly get elected by saying we have to raise taxes to be responsible and make sure the government is properly funded? The right wing propaganda machine RWPM would treat that argument like a food processor. Most media consumers would not get past the 'raise taxes' part to even *wonder* why that might be a good thing to consider. You could say raise taxes on the rich only, but the RWPM would turn that into raise taxes on the upper middle class who does not even realize that they are not that rich. Sure, they are rich compared to most, but compared to the super-rich they have diddly squat. The RWPM would tell middle class workers they will have to pay for 'slackers' (qualified willing people who can't find work) to do nothing as they work.

We are going to have to change these attitudes slowly, one at a time, to nudge the nation closer to what it needs to be.

 

[CFM]

Hello Frank,

So wise! I agree with every single word.

I don't see how two factors can be merged without the consequences of give and take. The two factors are a) Increasing population levels, and b) Industrial automation displacing workers.

In the past, new technologies have generated more jobs to take care of machines and to manage new possibilities presented by using the machines. AI is poised to change that, because the machines will build themselves, service themselves, even design better machine replacements.

One day it will be possible to have a profit-generating corporation completely operated by machines. Every single job will be done by machines. That will be fantastic for the owners of the (very expensive) machines, but will mean the curse of unemployment for human workers. How will society deal with that?

Machines don't pay taxes, generate no revenue.

Without millions of workers getting paychecks and paying taxes the government will go bankrupt, and the would-be workers will starve.

The only solution is to tax the rich heavily to pay for a government-issued 'free' salary for everyone - whether they work or not.

The basic universal income is our only future under this scenario.

Claims that new jobs will magically appear are but wishful thinking.

Capitalism will not be satisfied to destroy the American family and family values with it. Capitalism will destroy our national budget.

Capitalism seeks to maximize profits and minimize costs. Labor is targeted, and taxes are also targeted. Capitalism generates the power for the oligarchy to eliminate labor costs and also eliminate tax payments through crony capitalism. This is all fine and well for the rich, but in so doing they destroy American families and the American government. Capitalism without the governing control of socialism will eventually destroy the United States.

I'm sure many will disagree with this, but I have never heard one convincing argument why this would not occur. These trends are in place, and I don't see anything to stop it.

What candidate could possibly get elected by saying we have to raise taxes to be responsible and make sure the government is properly funded? The right wing propaganda machine RWPM would treat that argument like a food processor. Most media consumers would not get past the 'raise taxes' part to even *wonder* why that might be a good thing to consider. You could say raise taxes on the rich only, but the RWPM would turn that into raise taxes on the upper middle class who does not even realize that they are not that rich. Sure, they are rich compared to most, but compared to the super-rich they have diddly squat. The RWPM would tell middle class workers they will have to pay for 'slackers' (qualified willing people who can't find work) to do nothing as they work.

We are going to have to change these attitudes slowly, one at a time, to nudge the nation closer to what it needs to be.

Just how much left wing asshole can you kiss, boy?

 

[cawacko]

Hello cawacko,

I do not understand why conservatives claim capitalism has brought people out of poverty when in reality that can largely be attributed to both capitalism and socialism. True, the industrial age has generated jobs which created the middle class, but it was progressive taxation and social programs which have made the difference before/after the New Deal for more poor than the industrial age helped. And don't forget that capitalism treated industrial age workers pretty badly until the socialism of unionizing improved their lot significantly.

Is it just conservatives who say it? The Econonist, not a conservative publication, has written several articles in it. And just from a definitions standpoint you call unions socialism but are unions really govt controlling the means of production? I get the point you are attempting to make vis a vis taxation and social programs but I wouldn't call that socialism

 

[Ross Dolan]

Hello Frank,

So wise! I agree with every single word.

I don't see how two factors can be merged without the consequences of give and take. The two factors are a) Increasing population levels, and b) Industrial automation displacing workers.

In the past, new technologies have generated more jobs to take care of machines and to manage new possibilities presented by using the machines. AI is poised to change that, because the machines will build themselves, service themselves, even design better machine replacements.

One day it will be possible to have a profit-generating corporation completely operated by machines. Every single job will be done by machines. That will be fantastic for the owners of the (very expensive) machines, but will mean the curse of unemployment for human workers. How will society deal with that?

Machines don't pay taxes, generate no revenue.

Without millions of workers getting paychecks and paying taxes the government will go bankrupt, and the would-be workers will starve.

The only solution is to tax the rich heavily to pay for a government-issued 'free' salary for everyone - whether they work or not.

The basic universal income is our only future under this scenario.

Claims that new jobs will magically appear are but wishful thinking.

Capitalism will not be satisfied to destroy the American family and family values with it. Capitalism will destroy our national budget.

Capitalism seeks to maximize profits and minimize costs. Labor is targeted, and taxes are also targeted. Capitalism generates the power for the oligarchy to eliminate labor costs and also eliminate tax payments through crony capitalism. This is all fine and well for the rich, but in so doing they destroy American families and the American government. Capitalism without the governing control of socialism will eventually destroy the United States.

I'm sure many will disagree with this, but I have never heard one convincing argument why this would not occur. These trends are in place, and I don't see anything to stop it.

What candidate could possibly get elected by saying we have to raise taxes to be responsible and make sure the government is properly funded? The right wing propaganda machine RWPM would treat that argument like a food processor. Most media consumers would not get past the 'raise taxes' part to even *wonder* why that might be a good thing to consider. You could say raise taxes on the rich only, but the RWPM would turn that into raise taxes on the upper middle class who does not even realize that they are not that rich. Sure, they are rich compared to most, but compared to the super-rich they have diddly squat. The RWPM would tell middle class workers they will have to pay for 'slackers' (qualified willing people who can't find work) to do nothing as they work.

We are going to have to change these attitudes slowly, one at a time, to nudge the nation closer to what it needs to be.

Lots of really great stuff in this post of yours, Poli. You actually see the problem...which affords you insights into real solutions. I’m going on to some thoughts of my own here, and will get back to comment specifically on yours at some point.

Eventually, probably sooner than most think, we will have to eliminate the “Protestant work ethic”…the idea of having to work for one’s living. There will not be enough decent paying jobs for everyone who needs and wants one. Human labor already is not cost efficient…and with each passing day (each new technological achievement) gets less and less cost efficient.

You are getting at a form of the move needed…with “guaranteed basic income.” But it should go even further. Something more along the lines of only allowing people to WORK…as a reward for skill, ability, and determination to do the most productive work possible.

This is complicated…and needs lots of ‘splainin’. But suffice for right now to say that if we give as much of the work that has to be done over to machines…and only allow the most productive (or most determined) of humans to do the human work required (which would result in vastly expanded productivity) we will have more of everything to go around. We already have enough to go around…but we would have EVEN MORE.

And that, ultimately, is what we want: More to go around so that EVERYONE can have “sufficient”…and perhaps even “more than just sufficient, but rather, plenty.”

If we get to the point where we have “plenty to go around”…each of us will be able to have plenty…even if it means some of us will not work...or even, will not be allowed to work. (Some people should NOT be allowed to work; they are too inefficient...too costly to productivity!)

That essentially would change the problem we are facing from “how do we create enough decent paying jobs for everyone who needs and wants one" (an almost impossible problem to solve)… to a problem of distributing PLENTY to everyone (a relatively easy problem to solve.)