Despite bible thumpers whining we keep finding transitional fossils

[PostmodernProphet]

Judaism teaches that humans are born pure and have free will to choose between good and evil. People have the ability to avoid sin and its negative consequences, and goodness is possible, though sometimes difficult.

and how has that worked out in practice........ever met anyone who's managed that?.......

original sin is NOT the belief that we are guilty because Adam or Eve sinned.......it is a sin of our origin......human nature.......not AN original sin, a sin of one person attributed to others into the future.......

Adam and Eve walked and talked to God on a daily basis, yet they still disobeyed an obviously divine and superior entity......why would anyone believe they could do better under lesser circumstances?........

 

[Cypress]

Did you know there is a whole industry that manufactures 'fossils' for 'scientists' to pay for and to try to gain fame?

^^^ Tin foil hat stuff

 

[Obtenebrator]

aand how has that worked out in practice........ever met anyone who's managed that?.......

original sin is NOT the belief that we are guilty because Adam or Eve sinned.......it is a sin of our origin......human nature.......not AN original sin, a sin of one person attributed to others into the future.......

Adam and Eve walked and talked to God on a daily basis, yet they still disobeyed an obviously divine and superior entity......why would anyone believe they could do better under lesser circumstances?........

IMHO, original sin is an excellent metaphor for accepting that every single one of us is prone to error. While the concept can be used corrosively to make people feel they are inherently bad a (perhaps) more nuanced use of the metaphor is to say we are not all "bad" through and through but that we are able to be bad.

And if we are ALL prone to being bad from time to time we must be aware that those around us are likewise capable of making errors of judgement and that MAYBE an ideal we can aspire to is to be forbearant to others foibles as they are forbearant to ours.

This is precisely why I like the concept of "Grace" in Christian Soteriology. Not necessarily the Grace of God, but rather that WE, each, individually, try to show grace to others' trespassing against us because we are aware that we are prone to trespassing against others.

It makes the commands to "love thy enemies" more palatable and possibly more achievable.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Yet it takes 100s of years for bones to decay.

Taphonomy (the study of the fossilization process) would not necessarily require the "decay" of the bones. Bones would either be preserved as their original material OR, more likely, remineralized by groundwater.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Who says he didn't create any and all beasts, even those that went extinct?

The concept of "Special Creation" as outlined in the Bible only allows for the establishment of all life forms ONCE at ONE POINT IN TIME. That's how the Bible explains it.

The fossil record, however, shows new animals coming on the scene millions of years apart and many, many, many times over.

SO:

1. Either the Bible is incorrect and "special creation" happened over and over and over and over and over again
OR
2. God decided to make it LOOK like it did when it did not (theologically problematic to have a God who decieves)

 

[Obtenebrator]

Did you know there is a whole industry that manufactures 'fossils' for 'scientists' to pay for and to try to gain fame?

Wow. No I didn't. Where is this "industry" located at? Is it, perchance, in the basement of a pizza parlor somewhere?

 

[Obtenebrator]

Adam was the first humanoid with a Spirit!

This is precisely how many people go about parsing out humanity from all other animals. It is a kind of backwards-inference in order to support our all-too-human chauvanism FOR humanity. "Surely WE must be different from all animals. SURELY because otherwise we are nothing better than animals."

Unfortunately there's little to actually evidence the claim but it certainly appeals to a large number of people.

This leads to people claiming that ONLY humans are capable of certain mental feats even though we cannot know what another mind's mental state is unless we can communicate directly with them. Since we can't it allows people with the "human chauvanism" built in to argue against any comparison between humans an animals.

 

[Into the Night]

^^^ Tin foil hat stuff

Fossils aren't made of tin, Sybil. Not even the fake ones.

 

[Cypress]

Fossils aren't made of tin, Sybil. Not even the fake ones.

Have you talked to your psychiatrist about your belief in a vast global conspiracy to fabricate fossil evidence?

 

[Into the Night]

The concept of "Special Creation" as outlined in the Bible only allows for the establishment of all life forms ONCE at ONE POINT IN TIME. That's how the Bible explains it.

The fossil record, however, shows new animals coming on the scene millions of years apart and many, many, many times over.

SO:

1. Either the Bible is incorrect and "special creation" happened over and over and over and over and over again
OR
2. God decided to make it LOOK like it did when it did not (theologically problematic to have a God who decieves)

The only thing a fossil shows is that a creature or plant once existed there. It does not show lineage, and is not a measurement of time.

There is no such term as "special creation" anywhere in the Bible.

The Theory of Creation states that life arrived on Earth through the action of some kind of intelligence. Christians assume that intelligence to be God.

 

[Phantasmal]

IMHO, original sin is an excellent metaphor for accepting that every single one of us is prone to error. While the concept can be used corrosively to make people feel they are inherently bad a (perhaps) more nuanced use of the metaphor is to say we are not all "bad" through and through but that we are able to be bad.

And if we are ALL prone to being bad from time to time we must be aware that those around us are likewise capable of making errors of judgement and that MAYBE an ideal we can aspire to is to be forbearant to others foibles as they are forbearant to ours.

This is precisely why I like the concept of "Grace" in Christian Soteriology. Not necessarily the Grace of God, but rather that WE, each, individually, try to show grace to others' trespassing against us because we are aware that we are prone to trespassing against others.

It makes the commands to "love thy enemies" more palatable and possibly more achievable.

This is why I dislike Christianity. It’s negative.

Why can’t we start from the premise that humans are good, but we can fail to meet the mark at times. This would make it easier to live your enemy because you would understand that there is good in all of us.

It’s why I’ve rejected Christianity, and its guilt and negativity.

 

[Into the Night]

Have you talked to your psychiatrist about your belief in a vast global conspiracy to fabricate fossil evidence?

DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR PROBLEM ON ME, SYBIL!

 

[Into the Night]

This is why I dislike Christianity. It’s negative.

Why can’t we start from the premise that humans are good, but we can fail to meet the mark at times. This would make it easier to live your enemy because you would understand that there is good in all of us.

It’s why I’ve rejected Christianity, and its guilt and negativity.

Christianity isn't negative.

 

[Obtenebrator]

The only thing a fossil shows is that a creature or plant once existed there. It does not show lineage, and is not a measurement of time.

Actually you are 100% wrong (as usual). Lineage is determined in pretty much the same way we determine the relationship between LIVING animals (physiological forms) and as a measure of time, well, indeed, changes in fossils of given animal clades is used as a measure of what is called "relative dating" in geology (this particular type is called "Faunal Succession")

There is no such term as "special creation" anywhere in the Bible.

That is the term used to describe the Biblical creation model. Look it up.

The Theory of Creation states that life arrived on Earth through the action of some kind of intelligence. Christians assume that intelligence to be God.

Creationism is predicated on the Genesis account. Which means it is limited to one point in time and does NOT allow for multiple cases of new animals showing up over vast stretches of time.

As for that intelligence of the creator, well, we can agree to disagree on the quality of the engineering at times.

 

[Obtenebrator]

This is why I dislike Christianity. It’s negative.

Why can’t we start from the premise that humans are good, but we can fail to meet the mark at times. This would make it easier to live your enemy because you would understand that there is good in all of us.

It’s why I’ve rejected Christianity, and its guilt and negativity.

I definitely see your point. I think it's the history of the application of the faith. Since religion is one of the most effective tools available for coercion and getting people to behave in a specific way it is very easy for it to slip over into abuse.

And, then, some folks (I even find myself slipping into this) have a relatively negative view (we are the "glass half full" folks) for whom any and all reminders of our flaws seem to be the main things we focus on.

But I generally agree with your point that it doesn't NEED to be negative. It CAN be cast in a positive light (and again, here I"m talking about the METAPHORICAL original sin, not the Biblical Literalist Original Sin)

 

[Into the Night]

Actually you are 100% wrong (as usual).

Bulverism fallacy. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

Lineage is determined in pretty much the same way we determine the relationship between LIVING animals (physiological forms) and as a measure of time, well, indeed, changes in fossils of given animal clades is used as a measure of what is called "relative dating" in geology (this particular type is called "Faunal Succession")

Fossils do not designate any lineage. Your artificial assignments of "lineage" won't work here. Fossils do not measure or indicate time. Base rate fallacy.

That is the term used to describe the Biblical creation model. Look it up.

The Theory of Creation does not come from the Bible. The Bible does subscribe to it though, with the "intelligence" being God.

Creationism is predicated on the Genesis account.

The Theory of Creation does not come from the Bible.

Which means it is limited to one point in time and does NOT allow for multiple cases of new animals showing up over vast stretches of time.

The Theory of Creation is about life in general, not specific forms.

As for that intelligence of the creator, well, we can agree to disagree on the quality of the engineering at times.

Okay. Let's see you do better. Let me know how that works out.

 

[Into the Night]

I definitely see your point. I think it's the history of the application of the faith. Since religion is one of the most effective tools available for coercion and getting people to behave in a specific way it is very easy for it to slip over into abuse.

And, then, some folks (I even find myself slipping into this) have a relatively negative view (we are the "glass half full" folks) for whom any and all reminders of our flaws seem to be the main things we focus on.

But I generally agree with your point that it doesn't NEED to be negative. It CAN be cast in a positive light (and again, here I"m talking about the METAPHORICAL original sin, not the Biblical Literalist Original Sin)

Your semantics games won't work here.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Your semantics games won't work here.

LOL. Like I care one whit what a simp like YOU thinks about anything! LOLOLOL.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Bulverism fallacy. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

Fossils do not designate any lineage. Your artificial assignments of "lineage" won't work here. Fossils do not measure or indicate time. Base rate fallacy.

The Theory of Creation does not come from the Bible. The Bible does subscribe to it though, with the "intelligence" being God.

The Theory of Creation does not come from the Bible.

The Theory of Creation is about life in general, not specific forms.

Okay. Let's see you do better. Let me know how that works out.

Wow. So much typing and yet so incredibly uninformed. How do you do it? How do you must long posts that have no value in them? Curious.

 

[Margot]

pretty much traditional Christian doctrine

I think it was crystal clear by both thread title and context that my post was speaking to conservative biblical literalists.

Not to Quakers, Unitarians, transcendentalists, Christian humanists, or anyone who thinks Genesis is either allegorical, or that Genesis is referring to the evolution of Homo Erectus on the African plain.

You're all over the place,mixing many different concepts! You'll be in Spiritual babble till you search for truth ,that only can be found through the Holy Spirit! But that would take Faith on your part!
At this time I don't see that as a possibility!