Drunk Rodney King Shot! BAC get yo ass over to LA and teach those Korean Store Owners

[gonzojournals]

I'm not trying to pin anything on you and I'm not calling you a nazi.

But would a feminist identify themselves as a nazi in any shape, form, or fashion? That's a serious question.

It seems as contradictory as a black klansman .. which by the way I'm not calling you either.

First of all, I am a feminist as part of what I believe, but not as the sole source of my politics.

Secondly, the concept of a joke would do wonders for you.

Thirdly, Nazi has entered into common language as a term for anyone that is overly strict ( from wiktionary: (slang, usually pejorative) A person considered unfairly oppressive or needlessly strict), which is what my title refers to....and frankly that is all I have to say on that subject, as there are obviously more important things to be discussed than the political correctness of my custom user title.

 

[gonzojournals]

Desh and Darla, I am still waiting for some evidence of my horrible behaviour towards women.

 

[Minister of Truth]

So when did BAC become R. Kelley?

 

[Cancel7]

Again, I assume you can back this up. I am still waiting for any sort of evidence on your part, other than just repeated attacks on my person (all I can think is that you have trouble keeping up with my posts, and that threatens you).


Even if my responses were counted, what have I said to you that reflects that you are a woman or that I hate women?

There isn't a sentence in any of my posts that would suggest that....please, drop the McCarthyist Witch hunt and argue about something more substantial.

I didn't say you hate women, I said you're not a feminist. No actual feminist would need for me to explain why, but since you are not a feminist, I will.

No feminist would claim that men are victims of sexism

It's that easy, that simple.

Are we done yet, or are you going to go on forever claiming that you are running around wearing "ERA or bust" t-shirts, and f'ing women with underarm hair? Because you know, there is only so much horseshit I can take in one day, and dont' forget, Dano was posting this morning. So, I was already half way there.

 

[blackascoal]

Here in Australia we got the same news reports as were aired in the US. We go the few minutes grab of the video of the incident. I remember being in pretty high dudgeon at what I'd seen. Now I have to say I had visited some police establishments in LA (several times to the Academy) on my trips to the US and found the LAPD cops to be highly trained and professional, if a bit military gung-ho for my liking, but that's just me, I don't believe in militarism in policiing. But LA isn't like anywhere in Australia so I figured they were reflecting the hazards of their job.

Anyway I watched the news and read the papers and I thought they were goners.

I returned to LA while the Simi Valley trial was under way and discussed it with an ex-LAPD friend of mine. I couldn't help it, I just blurted out how the King incident looked really bad and the cops were out of control. He took issue with me. He'd been watching the whole trial on Court TV (he's a writer) and told me that what had been seen on the news and portrayed in the press was a fraction of what had happened and that in his opinion the cops had used appropriate tactics and force. I still wasn't convinced but all I had was the news footage so how was I to argue?

I remember the day of the acquittal. It was my last day in LA on that trip before flying out from LAX in the early evening to come home. I was poodling around downtown LA in the rental car, just having a last look around before heading home. I remember driving through what looked in retrospect suspiciously like the area where Reginald Denny came to grief. I remember remarking to my then wife that it was very quiet. I'd forgotten that the trial was ending.

I took the rental car back to LAX and caught the shuttle back to the terminal and did all those pre-flight things you do. I remember sitting in a lounge in the airport drinking beer and watching a yuppie couple trying to talk to the Vietnamese lady in the bar. Problem was they were speaking Spanish to her. She just looked at me and rolled her eyes. I had no idea that at that moment LA was burning. When I got back to Aus I was stunned.

I went back on another trip not that long after. I saw my friend again and we discussed the whole thing at length. I bought Stacey Koon's book (yes, I know you could call it self-serving) and read it when I got back home again. This was after the federal trial if I remember rightly. I read much of what Koon's attorney wrote about both trials. I read the reports of the plea bargains and deals that were going on in the federal process.

I believe the cops were victims of political necessity, I really do. I saw the longer version of the tape. Koon was in control and giving orders. Yes they were striking King with PR24 batons but it wasn't an out-of-control pile-on, it was cold-blooded application of force.

Many of you will dispute this. Fair enough, all I can do is tell you what my experiences were. I'm not a reflexive knee-jerk defender of the police, I'm not too happy with the speed with which the taser seems to being used in various jurisdictions these days (I'm told I'm close to becoming a dinosaur) but I do believe that injustice was done to the cops.

The irony of the CHP being involved in the start of the King situation wasn't lost on me at the time. I remember reading accounts of the events that precipitated the Watts riots of 1966, CHP was at the beginning of that one too. An eerie historical echo.

Interesting analysis here - http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/trials24.htm

The goal of the cops in this incident was not to subdue the man but to beat him down. There was enough of them that they could have simply sat on King if the goal was to subdue him.

Irrespective of what approved police tactics may or may not have been a gang of cops don't get to bludgen unarmed civilians in such a brutal fashion.

You say the LA force appeared "highly trained and professional" but this was the same police force that had been engaged in so many police brutality incidents, costing the city millions of dollars, that it forced Chief Darryl Gates to resign. The Christopher Commission, which was formed to investigate charges of brutality and excessive force found this ..

. There is a significant number of officers in the LAPD who repetitively use excessive force against the public and persistently ignore the written guidelines of the department regarding force.

. The failure to control these officers is a management issue that is at the heart of the problem. The documents and data that we have analyzed have all been available to the department; indeed, most of this information came from that source. The LAPD's failure to analyze and act upon these revealing data evidences a significant breakdown in the management and leadership of the Department. The Police Commission, lacking investigators or other resources, failed in its duty to monitor the Department in this sensitive use of force area. The Department not only failed to deal with the problem group of officers but it often rewarded them with positive evaluations and promotions.

. We recommend a new standard of accountability....Ugly incidents will not diminish until ranking officers know they will be held responsible for what happens in their sector, whether or not they personally participate."

This was the very same department you saw as "highly trained and professional."

The problem is that the view you were looking from was not the same view citizens of that city was looking from, who were being terrorized by what in fact was a rogue and out-of-control police department.

A department that was later found to also have officers that was robbing drug dealers, selling their drugs, and murdering people.

Same department .. different view.

 

[gonzojournals]

I didn't say you hate women, I said you're not a feminist. No actual feminist would need for me to explain why, but since you are not a feminist, I will.

No feminist would claim that men are victims of sexism

Yes, a feminist would....a hardcore manhater might not, but a feminist would have the good sense to admit that a man can be discriminated against...you seem to be the only person incapable of differentiating between the concept of men being discriminated against along with women and men being discriminated against but never any against women...the former is what I'm arguing, and you are truly ignorant if you think a man has never been discriminated against...I never even said it was a common practice, I just said that it exists and that women are not the only ones discriminated against.

If anything it displays your own ethnocentrism to assume that our culture is the only way things are done-- while men can be discriminated against in our own society, they are frequently discriminated against in matriarchal societies in other parts of the world.

Are we done yet, or are you going to go on forever claiming that you are running around wearing "ERA or bust" t-shirts, and f'ing women with underarm hair?

I have, but I would think that the belief that women are politically equal to men but differ socially in some respects would be more feminism-- the choice between being able to be a CEO or a housewife, and not being limited to either. But apparently underarm hair is the measure of a real feminist, not the belief in equality. And before you jump on the "socially different" part of what I said, perhaps you should reexamine what feminism is, because the postmodern feminist movement very much agrees with me.

Because you know, there is only so much horseshit I can take in one day, and dont' forget, Dano was posting this morning. So, I was already half way there.

The horseshit coming from you will fill up the other 50 percent, I think.

 

[blackascoal]

First of all, I am a feminist as part of what I believe, but not as the sole source of my politics.

Secondly, the concept of a joke would do wonders for you.

Thirdly, Nazi has entered into common language as a term for anyone that is overly strict ( from wiktionary: (slang, usually pejorative) A person considered unfairly oppressive or needlessly strict), which is what my title refers to....and frankly that is all I have to say on that subject, as there are obviously more important things to be discussed than the political correctness of my custom user title.

Don't run now ..

Surely you know the implications and view of the word "nazi", yet you whine when I ask how could a feminists call themselves a nazi. I didn't ask about your dedication to grammar, and you never, for obvious reasons, never answered the question I asked.

If what you said was a joke, it ain't (eb) just me that doesn't get the humor.

 

[gonzojournals]

Don't run now ..

Surely you know the implications and view of the word "nazi", yet you whine when I ask how could a feminists call themselves a nazi. I didn't ask about your dedication to grammar, and you never, for obvious reasons, never answered the question I asked.

If what you said was a joke, it ain't (eb) just me that doesn't get the humor.

I'm whining because you are being overly PC for the sake of antagonising me...neither you nor the others have anything against me as far as hard evidence or actual proof goes, yet you have determined to point out some flaws because you cannot stand that there was not an anti-racism gangbang in this thread.

Yes, I know the implications and view of the word nazi, and know it more than you do, I think. Clearly if you knew the implications as well as you seem to think you do, then you would know that it is frequently used in common language in exactly the context I have used it....for example, "The Soup Nazi"...are the Jewish actors of Seinfeld insensitive or anti-feminist because they had a character on the show called the Soup Nazi?

 

[Blackflag]

Lol at this thread. That was some good reading.

 

[blackascoal]

I'm whining because you are being overly PC for the sake of antagonising me...neither you nor the others have anything against me as far as hard evidence or actual proof goes, yet you have determined to point out some flaws because you cannot stand that there was not an anti-racism gangbang in this thread.

Yes, I know the implications and view of the word nazi, and know it more than you do, I think. Clearly if you knew the implications as well as you seem to think you do, then you would know that it is frequently used in common language in exactly the context I have used it....for example, "The Soup Nazi"...are the Jewish actors of Seinfeld insensitive or anti-feminist because they had a character on the show called the Soup Nazi?

I think you're getting a bit carried away.

As I said, I was not calling you a nazi or a klansman. I simply asked if a feminist would ever call themselves a nazi. The black klansman remark was "Chapelle-esque" and was my attempt at humor, which obviously you didn't get.

Your post to me was civil and I thought I was being civil in kind. I apologize if you perceieved it differently.

 

[Diuretic]

The goal of the cops in this incident was not to subdue the man but to beat him down. There was enough of them that they could have simply sat on King if the goal was to subdue him.

The objective in a situation like this is to put the subject under total control. Having done that it's necessary to transport him to a custodial facility. That requires complete submission by the subject. Beating King with PR24 batons was the chosen tactic. I think from memory that oc spray was ruled out because Koon thought King was on pcp, that he was dusted. Given that I would think the tactic was to beat him so that he submitted. I don't know a lot about the physiogical effects of pcp but I did discuss it with the chief forensic person at the LA Sheriff's lab quite some years ago and again from memory it gives a great burst of physical strength and then fatigue sets in. King is a big man apparently, I would think that the objective was to make him submit mentally and to be sufficiently fatigued and under control to safely transport him.

Irrespective of what approved police tactics may or may not have been a gang of cops don't get to bludgen unarmed civilians in such a brutal fashion.

It is brutal but that's what happens. It's why tasers were seen as the saviour of hte cops. It's never pleasant to watch six or seven cops taking down one man. I've been involved in a number of take downs (only physical ones, never used spray or taser) in my career and I have no doubt that to the disinterested spectator it would have looked horrifying to see me and my colleagues laying into someone. The objective is to get the subject under control once you've decided that force is going to be used. All the time in your mind is the knowledge that this isn't a bar-fight, that you are going to have to account for yourself to the department and to the court afterwards.

You say the LA force appeared "highly trained and professional" but this was the same police force that had been engaged in so many police brutality incidents, costing the city millions of dollars, that it forced Chief Darryl Gates to resign. The Christopher Commission, which was formed to investigate charges of brutality and excessive force found this ..

. There is a significant number of officers in the LAPD who repetitively use excessive force against the public and persistently ignore the written guidelines of the department regarding force.

. The failure to control these officers is a management issue that is at the heart of the problem. The documents and data that we have analyzed have all been available to the department; indeed, most of this information came from that source. The LAPD's failure to analyze and act upon these revealing data evidences a significant breakdown in the management and leadership of the Department. The Police Commission, lacking investigators or other resources, failed in its duty to monitor the Department in this sensitive use of force area. The Department not only failed to deal with the problem group of officers but it often rewarded them with positive evaluations and promotions.

. We recommend a new standard of accountability....Ugly incidents will not diminish until ranking officers know they will be held responsible for what happens in their sector, whether or not they personally participate."

This was the very same department you saw as "highly trained and professional."

Yes, that would be the mandated federal thing LAPD was put under. Gates wasn't good for the LAPD, I have to agree. He was the author of the militarism I referred to earlier. And I would think his legacy is still there. I remember being told by LAPD officers that Gates used to go out on patrol regularly, to keep in touch as it were. I also remember thinking that that was rather strange, why would a command officer be out on the road? I suppose he got a buzz out of it though, it can be very engaging. But still, it was a bad move.

And there will be instances of excessive force used in any department, it appears in the LAPD it was systematic in some areas. I can't deny it because I have no knowledge of it. All I can say is that from my observations of their training (from recruit through to in-service training) that it was high quality and that the officers I met were professional in their attitudes to the job. I haven't been back to LA since Bratton was appointed but I do read how he is trying to overcome the Gates legacy. He will need to be careful that he doesn't make the department ineffective due to fear of legal action.

One thing I do need to clear up but can't (and it never occurred to me to ask while visiting) is the issue of liability. I keep reading about how in the States the employing agency is liable for the actions of its officers. I don't know how far that goes but I do know that where I am the individual officer and not the department bears responsibility. It's because we inherited English law and the concept of the office of constable. So, if I am sued for a wrong committed against a citizen then it's me who loses his assets, not the department. That's a strong check on any tendency to go overboard. Of course like the LAPD officers in the King matter, we can also be imprisoned for crimes committed, in the terminology used in the US, "under the colour of authority".

The problem is that the view you were looking from was not the same view citizens of that city was looking from, who were being terrorized by what in fact was a rogue and out-of-control police department.

That's quite true. However I was conscious of the fact that I didn't have a "consumer" view of the LAPD on my visits. I tried to compare my highly subjective impressions of LAPD with LASD and I do think there are cultural differences. That may be due to jurisdiction or it may be due to deputies having to work in custodial facilities before being allowed on the road (that is it enables them to get through their first few years with directly interacting with the public, those first few years - after probation - see cops develop a lot of cockiness, I know, I went through it). But LASD works Compton now so I have no idea if that has altered the culture. My friend, the ex-LAPD cop, worked under Chief Parker, the Calvnist, as he calls him. The impression I get off the LAPD then was that Parker, the strict disciplinarian, reformed a lazy and incompetent - and criminal - department by sheer dint of will alone. He handed over the LAPD in good shape. It seems a pity that Gates pissed on Parker's legacy.

A department that was later found to also have officers that was robbing drug dealers, selling their drugs, and murdering people.

Same department .. different view.

Rampart Divison gang cops wasn't it? I don't know how far that had spread in the LAPD but it's a familiar pattern when spectacular forms of corrupt behaviour are observed in a police department. I don't subscribe to the rotten apples theory, never have, I know too well how no copper is 100% anything, but each of us are venal to a lesser or greater degree but also decent for the most part. Some of the 100% venal types (and I've seen them close up) are the exception rather than the rule. I saw one instance here where a single individual corrupted several "generations" of cops in his small circle of influence. Writ large I would think that was happening at Rampart. I'm not defending them, they all deserved to go to prison for lengthy terms for spectacularly corrupt, criminal behaviour. However that doesn't condemn the whole of the department. But it sure doesn't look good, I'll give you that.

 

[blackascoal]

I do appreciate your insight my brother.

I recognize that police work is a tough and dangerous job, but citizens should not, and cannot live in fear of their own police departments .. that they pay for.

My earliest memory of being introduced to the police was being thrown into the back of a police car and having a policeman put a boot on my head to hold me down. I was 12 years old, and I was guilty of standing on the corner of the school I attended with several of my friends after school. After the four cops got done intimidating us, the cop that had his boot on my head looked down at me and said, "the next time I see 5 of you niggers together you better be dribbling a basketball." It was the first time in my life I experienced the rush of hate. My humiliation may have driven me to kill him if I had the means.

Before the riots in Detroit in 1967 there was a unit of the Detroit police called S.T.R.E.S.S, an acronym for Stop The Robberies and Enjoy Safe Streets. It should have been more appropriately called "kill every young black male you can get your hands on." Time and time again this unit would be involved in the shooting death of a 15 or 16 year old boy, and repeatedly got caught planting weapons or drugs on their victims. When the riots occured and black men started killing police officers, I was never more proud of black people in my life. We lived in a war zone and the enemy was killing us at will. I was proud that we weren't going to take it anymore. I was proud that we were fighting back.

There is a consequence for racism, and when that consequence explodes, everybody loses.

You being an Australian, have you ever seen "Rabbit Proof Fence" ? It is one of the most moving films I have ever seen. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it, I'm going to cry at the end. It's an incredible story of aboriginal people and the british effort to "civilize" them.

Have you ever seen "Once Were Warriors" ? Fascinating study of culture.

 

[Damocles]

We already know what racist think.

What's new to listen to?

However, he does not know how you or I think. You suffer through a bit to get some air time. You don't change his mind by simple rejection. If that worked there'd be no more KKK.

 

[Socrtease]

First off I want to applaud you BAC, for remaining calm and rational at a time that one would understand if you behaved in the opposite. Second, gonzo are you really so fucking dense that you don't see the diffeerence in chastising someone for their racist views and comparing that to the racist statement itself. Finally, Dano wtf man? You eat some bad rye bread? Get some raw ergot straight to the brain? How in the FUCK do you make the original statement you made and then try to come off as it NOT sounding racist. Here is your attempt at logic. Rodney king gets shot in the face by someone. The police are called. People, including King, don't cooperate with the police. So BAC, because he is black, should step and fetch his ass to LA so that he can ransack some Korean stores and start a riot? Do I have it down? Is that what you suggested? Cause, though I am but a mere white mortal, that shit sounds racist as FUCK to me. And yes Gonzo I am intollerant of racists cause Racism is a fucking choice you moron. Race is NOT. Dano at some point today got a racist feeling about him and went off on a racist rant. Then he went further to make a clarification about the difference between GOOD racism and BAD racism. That is is ok to beat a nigger so long as he's a bad nigger.

 

[blackascoal]

However, he does not know how you or I think. You suffer through a bit to get some air time. You don't change his mind by simple rejection. If that worked there'd be no more KKK.

There will always be KKK, but because they have been rejected by society. They are greatly diminshed and have pretty much become completely inconsequential.

He's an adult and I cannot change his mind, society must do that by demonstrating the insignificance of his distorted view.

You can't bargain with the devil.

 

[Damocles]

It isn't a bargain. I can lecture with the best of them.

Just a different goal.

 

[Cancel7]

First off I want to applaud you BAC, for remaining calm and rational at a time that one would understand if you behaved in the opposite. Second, gonzo are you really so fucking dense that you don't see the diffeerence in chastising someone for their racist views and comparing that to the racist statement itself. Finally, Dano wtf man? You eat some bad rye bread? Get some raw ergot straight to the brain? How in the FUCK do you make the original statement you made and then try to come off as it NOT sounding racist. Here is your attempt at logic. Rodney king gets shot in the face by someone. The police are called. People, including King, don't cooperate with the police. So BAC, because he is black, should step and fetch his ass to LA so that he can ransack some Korean stores and start a riot? Do I have it down? Is that what you suggested? Cause, though I am but a mere white mortal, that shit sounds racist as FUCK to me. And yes Gonzo I am intollerant of racists cause Racism is a fucking choice you moron. Race is NOT. Dano at some point today got a racist feeling about him and went off on a racist rant. Then he went further to make a clarification about the difference between GOOD racism and BAD racism. That is is ok to beat a nigger so long as he's a bad nigger.

I love this post!

 

[Cancel7]

I do appreciate your insight my brother.

I recognize that police work is a tough and dangerous job, but citizens should not, and cannot live in fear of their own police departments .. that they pay for.

My earliest memory of being introduced to the police was being thrown into the back of a police car and having a policeman put a boot on my head to hold me down. I was 12 years old, and I was guilty of standing on the corner of the school I attended with several of my friends after school. After the four cops got done intimidating us, the cop that had his boot on my head looked down at me and said, "the next time I see 5 of you niggers together you better be dribbling a basketball." It was the first time in my life I experienced the rush of hate. My humiliation may have driven me to kill him if I had the means.

Before the riots in Detroit in 1967 there was a unit of the Detroit police called S.T.R.E.S.S, an acronym for Stop The Robberies and Enjoy Safe Streets. It should have been more appropriately called "kill every young black male you can get your hands on." Time and time again this unit would be involved in the shooting death of a 15 or 16 year old boy, and repeatedly got caught planting weapons or drugs on their victims. When the riots occured and black men started killing police officers, I was never more proud of black people in my life. We lived in a war zone and the enemy was killing us at will. I was proud that we weren't going to take it anymore. I was proud that we were fighting back.

There is a consequence for racism, and when that consequence explodes, everybody loses.

You being an Australian, have you ever seen "Rabbit Proof Fence" ? It is one of the most moving films I have ever seen. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it, I'm going to cry at the end. It's an incredible story of aboriginal people and the british effort to "civilize" them.

Have you ever seen "Once Were Warriors" ? Fascinating study of culture.

Thanks for writing all of the things you write on here. Not only are they beautifully written because you are a talented writer, but you bring a perspective to this board that is otherwise lacking and who knows how many eyes you might open. You have even taught me things and I have read the work of many black intellectuals so I got the idea that I already knew everything I needed to know...I'll never get that idea again!

 

[Topspin]

Wow men are victims of sexism

and I thought asshat was the biggest loser on the board.
He has a challenger.
Gonzo must be talking about men not being hired as hooters waitresses.

 

[Cancel7]

and I thought asshat was the biggest loser on the board.
He has a challenger.
Gonzo must be talking about men not being hired as hooters waitresses.

One thing I have to say for you Top, you have never once whined about being a white male. Good for you.