How do you determine who is illegal?

[Into the Night]

Is that so?

You seem to use this phrase a lot to mean "I don't believe you". Being condescending is not going to work.

 

[Phantasmal]

You can’t be this dense. Don’t have to prove a negative. They simply have to produce one. Can’t produce proof of citizenship? Bye bye.

Why do you want illegals here so badly?

They are productive citizens necessary to our society. It’s logical to give them a pathway to a green card or citizenship.

 

[Diogenes]

You seem to use this phrase a lot to mean "I don't believe you".

Do I?

 

[Into the Night]

Would I? Where do you suppose I live?

Irrelevance fallacy. This is immigration law which covers all States and territories.

 

[Diogenes]

This is immigration law which covers all States and territories.

Is it?

 

[Into the Night]

Are they REAL laws, or just make-believe tater head "laws"?

He's making shit up again, just like he pretends to be a lawyer.

 

[Diogenes]

Under U.S. law, probable cause is required for a police officer to stop someone and demand proof of U.S. citizenship.

Probable cause means that there must be a reasonable basis for believing that a crime has been or is being committed, or that there is evidence of a crime in the place to be searched.

Simply being present in the U.S. does not, by itself, constitute probable cause for such a demand:

• Probable Cause: According to the Fourth Amendment, law enforcement officials need probable cause to conduct a search or an arrest. This standard is not met by merely suspecting someone might not be a U.S. citizen without additional evidence suggesting criminal activity related to immigration status or another crime.
  
  
• Stops and Checkpoints: There are exceptions where law enforcement might stop vehicles at checkpoints or during routine traffic stops to check for driver's licenses, which can indirectly lead to questions about immigration status. However, these stops must be conducted in a manner that does not target individuals based solely on their perceived nationality or ethnicity.
  
  
• Immigration Checks: Immigration officials or law enforcement acting on behalf of immigration authorities can sometimes ask for proof of citizenship or immigration status if they have reasonable suspicion of a violation of immigration laws, but this does not equate to probable cause for a stop without additional factors.
  

In summary, stopping someone solely to demand proof of U.S. citizenship without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause related to criminal activity is not supported under U.S. law. Such actions would likely be seen as unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment unless there are other legal justifications or specific circumstances involved.


@Grok

 

[Into the Night]

Do you read for content, Mott stated, he informed his wife not to show her ID.

Then she could easily wind up in jail.
You are REQUIRED to have your driver's license on you when you drive on public roads.

 

[Into the Night]

Under U.S. law, probable cause is required for a police officer to stop someone and demand proof of U.S. citizenship.

Probable cause means that there must be a reasonable basis for believing that a crime has been or is being committed, or that there is evidence of a crime in the place to be searched.

Simply being present in the U.S. does not, by itself, constitute probable cause for such a demand:

• Probable Cause: According to the Fourth Amendment, law enforcement officials need probable cause to conduct a search or an arrest. This standard is not met by merely suspecting someone might not be a U.S. citizen without additional evidence suggesting criminal activity related to immigration status or another crime.
  
  
• Stops and Checkpoints: There are exceptions where law enforcement might stop vehicles at checkpoints or during routine traffic stops to check for driver's licenses, which can indirectly lead to questions about immigration status. However, these stops must be conducted in a manner that does not target individuals based solely on their perceived nationality or ethnicity.
  
  
• Immigration Checks: Immigration officials or law enforcement acting on behalf of immigration authorities can sometimes ask for proof of citizenship or immigration status if they have reasonable suspicion of a violation of immigration laws, but this does not equate to probable cause for a stop without additional factors.

In summary, stopping someone solely to demand proof of U.S. citizenship without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause related to criminal activity is not supported under U.S. law. Such actions would likely be seen as unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment unless there are other legal justifications or specific circumstances involved.


@Grok

Generic stops and checkpoints are illegal. They violate the 4th amendment. Yes...that includes TSA!
Border checkpoints are one of the few exceptions, since simply the act of crossing the border is itself a reason to check.

Boarding a plane or meeting someone is NOT a reason to search you or your luggage. The only ID you should need is your airline ticket and a photo id (checked by the ticketing agent).

Remember that TSA has not stopped a single terrorist or hijacker.

 

[Diogenes]

In the United States, drivers are generally required to have a valid driver's license in their possession while operating a motor vehicle on public roads. Here's a breakdown:

• Legal Requirement: Most states have laws that mandate drivers to carry their driver's license with them while driving. This is not only for identification purposes but also to prove that the driver is legally permitted to operate a vehicle.
• Driving Without a License: If pulled over or involved in an accident, a driver can be cited for not having a license on them, even if they are licensed but left it at home. Penalties can include fines, and in some cases, the vehicle might be towed or impounded.
• State Variations: While this is a common practice across the U.S., specific regulations can vary slightly from state to state. For example, some states might have different penalties or procedures for not carrying a license. However, the overall requirement to possess a license while driving is consistent.
• Exceptions: There might be exceptions for certain types of learners' permits or for individuals with disabilities, but these would be specific to state laws or particular circumstances.
• Proof of Identity: Beyond the legal requirement, having a driver's license serves as an immediate proof of identity and licensure for law enforcement, which can expedite interactions if stopped for traffic reasons.

Given this information, if you're driving on public roads in the USA, you should have your driver's license with you. If you need to confirm specifics for a particular state or situation, Grok can perform a search for more detailed, current information.


@Grok

 

[Diogenes]

Stops and checkpoints are illegal. They violate the 4th amendment. Yes...that includes TSA!

Is that a fact?

 

[ExpressLane]

The Border Patrol finger prints illegals. So we have a record of the people that aren't gotaways. So ICE can identify most illegals.

 

[volsrocks]

They are productive citizens necessary to our society. It’s logical to give them a pathway to a green card or citizenship.

So the illegal migrant that set the lady on fire in New York City is was a productive citizen?

 

[Diogenes]

The Border Patrol finger prints illegals. So we have a record of the people that aren't gotaways. So ICE can identify most illegals.

Is that right?

 

[Jarod]

The same here in Texas. Kansas as well. You are only required to know basic English. My friends mother learned enough to pass the test, but she can not have an in-depth conversation with you in English.

My house keeper speaks almost no English, and has a green card.

 

[Diogenes]

So the illegal migrant that set the lady on fire in New York City is was a productive citizen?

He produced a subway car-b-cue...

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Under U.S. law, probable cause is required for a police officer to stop someone and demand proof of U.S. citizenship.

Probable cause means that there must be a reasonable basis for believing that a crime has been or is being committed, or that there is evidence of a crime in the place to be searched.

Simply being present in the U.S. does not, by itself, constitute probable cause for such a demand:

• Probable Cause: According to the Fourth Amendment, law enforcement officials need probable cause to conduct a search or an arrest. This standard is not met by merely suspecting someone might not be a U.S. citizen without additional evidence suggesting criminal activity related to immigration status or another crime.
  
  
• Stops and Checkpoints: There are exceptions where law enforcement might stop vehicles at checkpoints or during routine traffic stops to check for driver's licenses, which can indirectly lead to questions about immigration status. However, these stops must be conducted in a manner that does not target individuals based solely on their perceived nationality or ethnicity.
  
  
• Immigration Checks: Immigration officials or law enforcement acting on behalf of immigration authorities can sometimes ask for proof of citizenship or immigration status if they have reasonable suspicion of a violation of immigration laws, but this does not equate to probable cause for a stop without additional factors.

In summary, stopping someone solely to demand proof of U.S. citizenship without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause related to criminal activity is not supported under U.S. law. Such actions would likely be seen as unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment unless there are other legal justifications or specific circumstances involved.


@Grok

This is in essence what I have been arguing. If you make Real ID a requirement for any activity requiring an ID card, then in cases were someone is interacting with law enforcement and does not have a Real ID, probable cause is created that they may be in the country illegally. At that point, having a Green Card or passport as a foreign national resolves the issue. If you have neither, then there is an increased probable cause you are in the country illegally and that that needs to be resolved.

There was no "show me your papers" in that as the original requirement was for an ID to perform something or identify yourself to law enforcement because of some other issue. Inability to produce identification that also confirms your immigration status / citizenship means increased scrutiny because of the now presence of a potentially second criminal issue.

 

[Into the Night]

They are productive citizens necessary to our society. It’s logical to give them a pathway to a green card or citizenship.

They won't be deported, Phanty.

 

[volsrocks]

Do you read for content, Mott stated, he informed his wife not to show her ID.

So his wife can't make her own decisions?

Wonder if he also demands her not show her ID when the bank or hospital asked for it?

 

[Jarod]

The client identification and verification process are the most vital step in establishing a legally compliant lawyer/client relationship. This process prevents fraud and safeguards the interests of all parties involved.

According to who?