Identical twins, one gay, one ain't

Solitary said:
Ok, the premise is that one identical twin can be as much as 25% larger.

It follows that one twin got something that the other did not. Otherwise, they would be the same size.

Since one got something the other did not, and you cannot identify or limit what that something is, you cannot conclusively say that there was not a significant hormonal difference in what they got.



Can't make it much simpler than that.
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Obviously that something affected their size. To draw a further conclusion "does not follow".
 
Southern Man said:
Obviously that something affected their size. To draw a further conclusion "does not follow".
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I did not draw a further conclusion. I said "Since there is an obvious difference (easily measureable) in one area, there being differences in other areas (especially areas that might be effected by hormonal influences in the womb) would not be impossible at all."

Your original premise was that homosexuality cannot be a genetic trait. The best medical research I have seen says that some people can be genetically predesposed to being homosexual. Which only means that genetics play a part.

The documented differences in there being differences amoung identical twins could very easily explain the rest.

There was a quote that I posted showing that twins do not receive the same nutrients, and therefore the same hormones. Which have been suggested as a factor for determining sexual orientation in the womb.
 
I want to know how one knows one is gay and one is straight? How does anyone really confirm either. Can't be done, society is a strong force in behavior.

But for those who think it is a choice I offer this simple test, switch hit. And then let us know how it goes.
 
Can someone give me a link about the inutero hormone stuff and homosexuality?
I am very curious about this...
 
Tabasco said:
Incorrect. While taste itself is a chemical reaction, how we perceive taste is not. It is influenced greatly by environmental and psychological factors. The same is true when it comes to attraction. One man prefers tall blondes, while another prefers short brunettes. While attraction is a chemical reaction, the preference is not. Understand?

The same is true for homosexuality. The mechanism behind sexuality/attraction is genetic, but preference is not. Gay people aren't gay because of genetics. It's a tired old argument, and you'd be wise to abandon it.
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What kills me about this logic is why if you believe its a choice is it bad?

I know by my own life that gay is not a choice.

I never for one fraction of a second ever thought about a womans body as sexually attractive. I have never for one second though of being gay as anything wrong.

The first thoughts of knowing people actually did have sex with the same sex were "so what".

If its truely choice why would ANYONE choose to be treated like crap by society just to engauge in something that gave them nothing that hetro sex can't give them?

I have talked to gay people who have flat said if it was a choice they would never have chosen it.
 
evince said:
What kills me about this logic is why if you believe its a choice is it bad?

I know by my own life that gay is not a choice.

I never for one fraction of a second ever thought about a womans body as sexually attractive. I have never for one second though of being gay as anything wrong.

The first thoughts of knowing people actually did have sex with the same sex were "so what".

If its truely choice why would ANYONE choose to be treated like crap by society just to engauge in something that gave them nothing that hetro sex can't give them?

I have talked to gay people who have flat said if it was a choice they would never have chosen it.
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Desh, I posted something that got a few private responses complimenting it as a good way to explain things.
(edited slightly)
"This is about who they are. You, like so many others, see this as about sex.

This is about who they are and who they love.

I love my kids. I love my Mom & Dad. I love my brothers and my sister. But the love I feel for my wife is a very different sort of love. And if I were unable to have sex at all, I would still feel the same way. It would be impossible for me to feel that kind of love for a man. I cannot even imagine feeling it.

That is the way a gay man or a lesbian is. They cannot love the opposite gender in the way I love my wife. It just isn't in them to do so.

What you want them to do is to not have sex. That is the easy part. But what you expect is for them to never know true love. And you want them to do so because their love makes you uncomfortable? And because of some ancient taboo from a book?

And you expect them to never teach, work with children, or do any of the things that you or I could be called to do. And you do so with no evidence that they would harm anyone. You do so out of your own discomfort."
 
midcan5 said:
I want to know how one knows one is gay and one is straight? How does anyone really confirm either. Can't be done, society is a strong force in behavior.

But for those who think it is a choice I offer this simple test, switch hit. And then let us know how it goes.
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The test doesn't work with suicide, and that's a choice. Of course you can try and prove me wrong on that one too....
 
Southern Man said:
I've know one of them for a while, and met her identical twin sister only once. One had longer hair so that's the only way I could tell them apart. One is normal, married, one child. The other is gay, "domestic partner", and has a kid through artificial means.

Someone explain to me how this is possible, if homosexuality is a genetic trait.
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Though I would not discount a genetic influence in homosexuality you make a good point. Most research has shown that sexual behavior is learned behavior.
 
Grind said:
It's something a lot of people don't want to talk about, though they should because I do think it hurts their argument when they ignore examples like this.

I think one being gay has more to do with societal conditioning, with being genetically disposed thrown in for good measure. I don't think anyone consciously chooses to be gay but I do believe they can be "swayed" that way through a lifetime of enviromental factors. Much like how some develop certain tastes for food. Very few people just wake up one day and decide they are going to start liking pizza, but their exposure to it, the way they have built up their pallet etc all contribute to them possibly liking pizza. I fucking HATE curry, but lots of indians like it. Did they choose to like that? No, they were just a product of their environment.

The conservative right has a vested interest in proving that it is all a choice because then they can feel less guilty about gay bashing. Like it's making fun of goths or something. "Don't like not having rights? well simply stop being a homo then!" etc . . .

With all that said, even if someone did just wake up and decide to be gay on whim, they should still not be punished for it and they should still have the right to get married to who they want and not be discriminated against.
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Well just because behavior is learned does not neccesarily equate with a choice. Cultural and learned influence can be extremely powerful. Much of who and what we are is learned behavior and it would be extraordinarily difficult to "choose" to be something else. Take the example of diet. I know people who would rather die (and some diabetics do choose to die) than change what they are used to eating. I know when I was in Asia I just simply could not get used to eating rice with every meal. Within a week a was sick to death of rice. Just the thought of eating rice was enough to make me lose my apetite. Conversely, my wife played hell, when she immigrated to the USA, not eating rice with every meal. It just doesn't seem like a meal to her if there's no rice. This is just one example of how powerfull learned behavior can be. My wife could choose, it principle, choose to never eat rice again but it would be extraordinarily difficult and in her culture, those who don't eat rice are not considered normal. This same principle applies to human sexuality.
 
Watermark said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

On appeal, the United States Supreme Court ruled that the criminalization of interracial sex was not a violation of the equal protection clause because whites and non-whites were punished in equal measure for the offense of engaging in interracial sex.
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Excellent point Water. I have trouble with the prohibition on gay marriage for several reasons. First, I'm in an interacial marriage and the same arguments used to oppose interacial marriages are used to oppose gay marriage. Second, I have two gay siblings both of whom are in commited, long term relationships. I would love to see them have the privalege to validate their love.
 
Mottleydude said:
Hey, don't put yourself down. An old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then. It doesn't surprise me that you have rational thoughts on occasion.
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You are mistaken. I have rational thoughts always on matters that I care to comment on. I was referring to you, actually abandoning the liberal, irrational, position for the correct one.
 
There's no evidence that homosexuality is genetic. I don't think any serious scientist ever claimed it was. Someone just published a report that said that gayness may have something to do with genetics, and, as usual, the media ran with it, printing tons of ads about the "Gay Gene". It would be nonsensical for homosexuality to be genetic because there's no way it could be passed on. Most people think that it is naturally part of their personality, but for reasons other than genetics.


As always, my source for this is skeptoid":

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4119

I'm Kevin Mellis, I'm 18, and I'm a student at the University of La Verne. My question is this: Homosexuality is popularly conceived as innate in a person's personality. Is there any scientific research regarding the veracity of this commonly held belief?

Yes there is. Despite Newsweek and the Wall Street Journal's best efforts to promote sensationalism through misleading headlines, one thing that is very clear to geneticists is that there is no "gay gene". The idea got its start in 1993 when Science published a study of homosexuality and genetic frequencies among familes. It was complicated, and was grossly and irresponsibly oversimplified into the "gay gene" by the media. New research is published pretty often, and about the only consensus that's displayed is that it seems likely that homosexuality has a combination of genetic, other biological, and environmental causes. If you read anything that claims to have found a single or clearly identified cause of homosexuality, you have very good reason to be skeptical of that source.
 
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Just because it's not genetic doesn't mean it's a choice, and quite frankly, if someone were gay just by choice it wouldn't bother me one bit. They should be allowed to marry the ones they love just like anyone else.

But there's no research that points definitively to where homosexuality originates, so it's a moot point. Anyone claiming to know is just guessing.
 
Watermark said:
Just because it's not genetic doesn't mean it's a choice, and quite frankly, if someone were gay just by choice it wouldn't bother me one bit. They should be allowed to marry the ones they love just like anyone else.

But there's no research that points definitively to where homosexuality originates, so it's a moot point. Anyone claiming to know is just guessing.
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If it ain't genetic, then how can it not be a learned behavior?
 
Southern Man said:
If it ain't genetic, then how can it not be a learned behavior?
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There are plenty of things that can effect the developing fetus while in the womb. This was stated early in the thread.

It can be something you are born to, without it being strictly genetic. And genetics can even play a part in it, without being the entire cause.
 
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