Illegal Immigration Rallies

Damocles said:
Tons. Many do not cross until they are pregnant so that they can have them soon after getting here. Specifically because of the Executive order that hospitals have to take them and they don't have to pay...
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Well, what do you propose, Damo? That we ship labouring illegals over the border to have their babies? Do you have any idea what kind of human rights vioaltion that is? It's tantamount to genocide.
 
Watermark said:
Fascist!

Why do you support repeal of the 14th ammendment?

;)

Seriously, US, you're proposition causes far more trouble than it solves. There's no reason to strip US babies of citizenship because they were born to illegals, and getting rid of de Jure citizenship would open us up to slavery and such things again. The government could very easily make an underclass of non-citzens in the future if the babies of the non-citzens born on US soil aren't guaranteed citizenship.
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You couldn't strip those who are already citizens. You could however make a law that labels all illegals as unsanctioned diplomats or vacationers. If somebody from France were visiting and had a child here they would not be citizens automatically....

Therefore those born later would not be considered citizens.
 
Watermark said:
Fascist!

Why do you support repeal of the 14th ammendment?

;)

Seriously, US, you're proposition causes far more trouble than it solves. There's no reason to strip US babies of citizenship because they were born to illegals, and getting rid of de Jure citizenship would open us up to slavery and such things again. The government could very easily make an underclass of non-citzens in the future if the babies of the non-citzens born on US soil aren't guaranteed citizenship.
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Actually I do in the case of the child resulting from parents being here illegally.
It is like being rewarded for illegal behaviour.


Bush has already suspended it for suspected terrorists even though they were born here. Just ship em to Gitmo....
 
Damocles said:
You couldn't strip those who are already citizens. You could however make a law that labels all illegals as unsanctioned diplomats or vacationers. If somebody from France were visiting and had a child here they would not be citizens automatically....

Therefore those born later would not be considered citizens.
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Absolutely Damo.
 
Watermark said:
Fascist!

Why do you support repeal of the 14th ammendment?

;)

Seriously, US, you're proposition causes far more trouble than it solves. There's no reason to strip US babies of citizenship because they were born to illegals, and getting rid of de Jure citizenship would open us up to slavery and such things again. The government could very easily make an underclass of non-citzens in the future if the babies of the non-citzens born on US soil aren't guaranteed citizenship.
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That's right. But so does the "guest worker program". We already are creating an underclass of cheap labor with absolutely zero power by way of the vote.
 
opens us up to slavery ??? Surely you are not serious on this.
We do have other laws and such about slavery and such.
 
Oh, I see, you mean what water said. I was responding to this part of his post, which I agree with

The government could very easily make an underclass of non-citzens in the future if the babies of the non-citzens born on US soil aren't guaranteed citizenship.

He is 100% correct on that. And that is also what this massive guest worker program bush is so high on does as well.
 
I would think that anyone who has not applied for citizenship would be assumed to be going back where they came from ? And taking their children with them ?

In a globalized world should not we bring our immigration and citizenship requirements more in line with those of the rest of the world
 
Darla said:
Oh, I see, you mean what water said. I was responding to this part of his post, which I agree with

The government could very easily make an underclass of non-citzens in the future if the babies of the non-citzens born on US soil aren't guaranteed citizenship.

He is 100% correct on that. And that is also what this massive guest worker program bush is so high on does as well.
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Well, there is a simple solution to the problem: don't come here illegally & get yourself processed liked every other legal immigrant. They are the ones doing it to themselves. Unless I was a political refugee in danger of my life, I would never bring my family somewhere illegally unless I knew that there was an institutionalized blind eye being turned toward my actions. We've facilitated this long enough.
 
Ok, to both of your points. These are desperate people. Desperate people will do pretty much anything they have to do to survive. And they are going to come here. So the question becomes, do we support a massive guest worker program that has little hope of gaining the participants citizenship, and uses them as a cheap labor force, creating an underclass of labor with no political power? And in doing so, drive down wages across the board?

Or do we support them having citizenship, thus gaining them the vote, and the right to organize and unionize, thus creating a far more powerful class of worker, which benefits all?

I go with the second option. Big Business goes with the first option. There's a reason they do.
 
Darla said:
Ok, to both of your points. These are desperate people. Desperate people will do pretty much anything they have to do to survive. And they are going to come here. So the question becomes, do we support a massive guest worker program that has little hope of gaining the participants citizenship, and uses them as a cheap labor force, creating an underclass of labor with no political power? And in doing so, drive down wages across the board?

Or do we support them having citizenship, thus gaining them the vote, and the right to organize and unionize, thus creating a far more powerful class of worker, which benefits all?

I go with the second option. Big Business goes with the first option. There's a reason they do.
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I'd go with either so long as we first closed the border to illegal entry. I'd prefer a "path to citizenship" follow real security changes on the border so that it doesn't just become just a larger draw.

The US will just ignore you until there are too many and then give amnesty! That is the message we sent in the 80s, it is the message we will send now if we do not first do something about illegal entry before giving those here a "path to citizenship".
 
Darla I think your opinion is like mine. But bring em in as citizens
Btw I have worked with many Guest workers and still do. Most of those are from middle to upper classes in India and such and save money and go back home and live well.
The guest worker issue is a totally different issue from the illegal immigrant issue.
btw I am against the guest worker program for the reasons you listed.
 
Darla said:
Ok, to both of your points. These are desperate people. Desperate people will do pretty much anything they have to do to survive. And they are going to come here. So the question becomes, do we support a massive guest worker program that has little hope of gaining the participants citizenship, and uses them as a cheap labor force, creating an underclass of labor with no political power? And in doing so, drive down wages across the board?

Or do we support them having citizenship, thus gaining them the vote, and the right to organize and unionize, thus creating a far more powerful class of worker, which benefits all?

I go with the second option. Big Business goes with the first option. There's a reason they do.
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You present the most rational argument as the only one off the table. Stop them from coming and deport the ones here. "we can't do that" is a just a lie.
 
Damocles said:
I'd go with either so long as we first closed the border to illegal entry. I'd prefer a "path to citizenship" follow real security changes on the border so that it doesn't just become just a larger draw.

The US will just ignore you until there are too many and then give amnesty! That is the message we sent in the 80s, it is the message we will send now if we do not first do something about illegal entry before giving those here a "path to citizenship".
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Well Damo, I can argue either side of this issue, to an extent, and I mean that because when I see someone on the very left say that it's not a problem at all, well that's not exactly true. Illegal immigration does have an effect on wages for our lower class workers here. Hit the hardest are African Americans. Also, construction workers, who used to make a decent, actual living wage, have been hit hard. So, I don't agree with ignoring that. That has to be addressed.

On the other hand, I find that the other side, for instance a Lou Dobbs, grossly exxagerates and demagogues this issue. He in particular, also traffics with known racists from actual racist organizations. Overall, illegal immigration has a net positive effect on our economy. Now, not being a Topspin type, I don't say, well then, as long as "overall" it's good for those already doing well, end case. I am very concerned with the worker, with the labor force. However, let's not blow it out of proportion either. Let's get all of the FACTS on the table, and go from there, based on reason.
 
Darla said:
Ok, to both of your points. These are desperate people. Desperate people will do pretty much anything they have to do to survive. And they are going to come here. So the question becomes, do we support a massive guest worker program that has little hope of gaining the participants citizenship, and uses them as a cheap labor force, creating an underclass of labor with no political power? And in doing so, drive down wages across the board?

Or do we support them having citizenship, thus gaining them the vote, and the right to organize and unionize, thus creating a far more powerful class of worker, which benefits all?

I go with the second option. Big Business goes with the first option. There's a reason they do.
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Of course I'd go with the second option for future immigrants. However in dealing with the ones that are here I'd give them two choices, they could go back and get citizenship legally or just simply go back. The more and more I think about it, the amesty idea is not a good one. All you're doing is laying the foundation for encouraging more people to cross the border without going through the proper security clearances.
If they get amnesty for coming here illegally, I going to demand amnesty on all of my traffic violations. Present and future.
 
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