Illegal Immigration Rallies

[Lao Tse]

Well Damo, I can argue either side of this issue, to an extent, and I mean that because when I see someone on the very left say that it's not a problem at all, well that's not exactly true. Illegal immigration does have an effect on wages for our lower class workers here. Hit the hardest are African Americans. Also, construction workers, who used to make a decent, actual living wage, have been hit hard. So, I don't agree with ignoring that. That has to be addressed.

On the other hand, I find that the other side, for instance a Lou Dobbs, grossly exxagerates and demagogues this issue. He in particular, also traffics with known racists from actual racist organizations. Overall, illegal immigration has a net positive effect on our economy. Now, not being a Topspin type, I don't say, well then, as long as "overall" it's good for those already doing well, end case. I am very concerned with the worker, with the labor force. However, let's not blow it out of proportion either. Let's get all of the FACTS on the table, and go from there, based on reason.

Actual known racist organizations? woah. That's pretty serious.

 

[LadyT]

Well Damo, I can argue either side of this issue, to an extent, and I mean that because when I see someone on the very left say that it's not a problem at all, well that's not exactly true. Illegal immigration does have an effect on wages for our lower class workers here. Hit the hardest are African Americans. Also, construction workers, who used to make a decent, actual living wage, have been hit hard. So, I don't agree with ignoring that. That has to be addressed.

That's really my problem with it. If they are going to come over here, it works out better for everyone if they are citizens. They have rights and they are going to demand fair wages and not under cut the working class.

 

[Cancel7]

Of course I'd go with the second option for future immigrants. However in dealing with the ones that are here I'd give them two choices, they could go back and get citizenship legally or just simply go back. The more and more I think about it, the amesty idea is not a good one. All you're doing is laying the foundation for encouraging more people to cross the border without going through the proper security clearances.
If they get amnesty for coming here illegally, I going to demand amnesty on all of my traffic violations. Present and future.

You're not going to deport millions of illegals. It's just not going to happen. It isn't feasable, and if it were, it'd be very expensive. I can think of better ways to spend that money that would actually positively effect the lives of Americans.

 

[Lao Tse]

That's really my problem with it. If they are going to come over here, it works out better for everyone if they are citizens. They have rights and they are going to demand fair wages and not under cut the working class.

You don't understand supply and demand. Just the influx of cheap labor, even if legal, will STILL drive wages down. Let's just return the automatic labor protection of an enforced border to the american people, who died to create this nation and deserve the fruits of past victories.

 

[Damocles]

Well Damo, I can argue either side of this issue, to an extent, and I mean that because when I see someone on the very left say that it's not a problem at all, well that's not exactly true. Illegal immigration does have an effect on wages for our lower class workers here. Hit the hardest are African Americans. Also, construction workers, who used to make a decent, actual living wage, have been hit hard. So, I don't agree with ignoring that. That has to be addressed.

On the other hand, I find that the other side, for instance a Lou Dobbs, grossly exxagerates and demagogues this issue. He in particular, also traffics with known racists from actual racist organizations. Overall, illegal immigration has a net positive effect on our economy. Now, not being a Topspin type, I don't say, well then, as long as "overall" it's good for those already doing well, end case. I am very concerned with the worker, with the labor force. However, let's not blow it out of proportion either. Let's get all of the FACTS on the table, and go from there, based on reason.

It is reasonable to want to open a front door rather than have people scramble in through the window and pretend that they are not there.

So whatever you seem to be associating me to when I say first actually create a border where they do not cross illegally probably is once again an assumption and one more time where you have me "pegged" incorrectly.

 

[Damocles]

You're not going to deport millions of illegals. It's just not going to happen. It isn't feasable, and if it were, it'd be very expensive. I can think of better ways to spend that money that would actually positively effect the lives of Americans.

Not even one person in this thread said to deport all of the illegals here. Not even one.

 

[Cancel7]

That's really my problem with it. If they are going to come over here, it works out better for everyone if they are citizens. They have rights and they are going to demand fair wages and not under cut the working class.

On the other side of that Tiana, if we were actually succesful at deporting all of the illegals and closing the borders (neither of these things will ever be done to any real extent), you and I couldn't go out to dinner without getting the shock of our lives. You couldn't go to the supermarket and buy fresh vegetables without seeing a big increase in your weekly spending. So, there are also going to be negatives that would come from this. Unless we legalized them all, worked hard to unionize them, and rasied wages across the board, thereby giving the working class more spending money so that the increase in the cost of goods and services wouldn't be so harsh.

 

[LadyT]

You're not going to deport millions of illegals. It's just not going to happen. It isn't feasable, and if it were, it'd be very expensive. I can think of better ways to spend that money that would actually positively effect the lives of Americans.

http://www.svherald.com/articles/2007/04/30/local_news/news1.txt

No, but almost 200K were deported last year so that's a start and businesses are starting to take a harder look at their work force and weighing the risks of knowingly employing undocumented workers. Hopefully that will encourage people to go through the proper channels.

 

[Cancel7]

Not even one person in this thread said to deport all of the illegals here. Not even one.

Damo I am so sick and tired of your claims that I see things that aren't there.

What the f does this mean then damo???? Can you explain what this means then???

"However in dealing with the ones that are here I'd give them two choices, they could go back and get citizenship legally or just simply go back. "

Now, if I took Tiana the wrong way on that, and she says that I did, I will apologize. But there is no doubt, except maybe in your mind, that a reasonable person could read it the way I did.

 

[Cancel7]

http://www.svherald.com/articles/2007/04/30/local_news/news1.txt

No, but almost 200K were deported last year so that's a start and businesses are starting to take a harder look at their work force and weighing the risks of knowingly employing undocumented workers. Hopefully that will encourage people to go through the proper channels.

I'm not against encouraging people to go through the proper channels, or for businesses to enforce the actual law.

 

[Cancel7]

It is reasonable to want to open a front door rather than have people scramble in through the window and pretend that they are not there.

So whatever you seem to be associating me to when I say first actually create a border where they do not cross illegally probably is once again an assumption and one more time where you have me "pegged" incorrectly.

What am I associating you with Damo?

 

[LadyT]

On the other side of that Tiana, if we were actually succesful at deporting all of the illegals and closing the borders (neither of these things will ever be done to any real extent), you and I couldn't go out to dinner without getting the shock of our lives. You couldn't go to the supermarket and buy fresh vegetables without seeing a big increase in your weekly spending. So, there are also going to be negatives that would come from this. Unless we legalized them all, worked hard to unionize them, and rasied wages across the board, thereby giving the working class more spending money so that the increase in the cost of goods and services wouldn't be so harsh.

#1) I really don't support amnesty - actually I'm totally against it. That's the one thing I won't get behind is just waving a magic wand and making their deception suddenly okay. That's a huge slap in the face to people who spend years of fustration and aggrevation becoming citizens. However, I can be bribed like I said. If they get amnesty, I'd be content with getting 30 free passes on traffic infractions throughout my lifetime. I mean, the government really is responsible for my speeding, they give me roads and affordable transportation, what am I supposed to do?

#2) If things happened the way you propose and wages across the board are raised, prices are still going to go up. You're just rewarding people who break the law with the higher wages first.

 

[Damocles]

Damo I am so sick and tired of your claims that I see things that aren't there.

What the f does this mean then damo???? Can you explain what this means then???

"However in dealing with the ones that are here I'd give them two choices, they could go back and get citizenship legally or just simply go back. "

Now, if I took Tiana the wrong way on that, and she says that I did, I will apologize. But there is no doubt, except maybe in your mind, that a reasonable person could read it the way I did.

I hadn't read that post when I posted it. I expected you would get up on me for it...

 

[Cancel7]

#1) I really don't support amnesty - actually I'm totally against it. That's the one thing I won't get behind is just waving a magic wand and making their deception suddenly okay. That's a huge slap in the face to people who spend years of fustration and aggrevation becoming citizens. However, I can be bribed like I said. If they get amnesty, I'd be content with getting 30 free passes on traffic infractions throughout my lifetime. I mean, the government really is responsible for my speeding, they give me roads and affordable transportation, what am I supposed to do?

#2) If things happened the way you propose and wages across the board are raised, prices are still going to go up. You're just rewarding people who break the law with the higher wages first.

Prices would still go up, but if you had a stronger working class, so would wages. If wages go up across the board, rather than being depressed because of illegal immigration, then that helps everybody not just those who broke the law.

As to your first point. I just feel like that's a lot like the attitude that some on the right have about things like universal health care. Well, I had to do without while I worked my way up, and I paid for health care and didn't go to a movie for 13 years, why should anyone have it easier than I did? So I think that people who immigrated here legally and who feel that way, that strikes me as slightly spiteful.

I'm not saying, hey, let's let everybody in, no questions asked. I'm not sure that's feasable any longer, the way it once was when most of our parents came over to Ellis Island. I'd like to see some real studies on the impact of that though. Not tilted one way or the other, real, hard core studies.

 

[uscitizen]

Didn't we wave tha amnesty wand at least once before ? During Regan ?

 

[Damocles]

What am I associating you with Damo?

However, let's not blow it out of proportion either. Let's get all of the FACTS on the table, and go from there, based on reason.

This was a part of your answer to me. It seems that you are associating some negative to my point of border security first then "path to citizenship" remark that means I haven't gathered FACTS... At least that is what one could imply that you were inferring with your STRESS of certain words there.

 

[Cancel7]

I hadn't read that post when I posted it. I expected you would get up on me for it...

That's right, and I blew my stack. You are always making me do that.

And I didn't imply you were a racist Damo. I know that you're not. I was speaking of Lou Dobbs and some of the people he has had on his show. I don't know why you always think I'm implying something about you.

 

[Damocles]

Didn't we wave tha amnesty wand at least once before ? During Regan ?

Exactly, and it did exactly what those who were against it said it would. Draw more illegals here. Without first either doing something about border security, or actually taking the businesses to taks for hiring them, or both this type of amnesty just reinforces that it is a good thing to enter this nation illegally.

 

[LadyT]

Damo I am so sick and tired of your claims that I see things that aren't there.

What the f does this mean then damo???? Can you explain what this means then???

"However in dealing with the ones that are here I'd give them two choices, they could go back and get citizenship legally or just simply go back. "

Now, if I took Tiana the wrong way on that, and she says that I did, I will apologize. But there is no doubt, except maybe in your mind, that a reasonable person could read it the way I did.

Well, technically a portion of those people wouldn't necessarily be deported if they go back on their own and try to get citizenship. But yes, I do think the goal should be identify and deport as many individuals who are here unlawfully. I realize it won't be all of them, but if we can get it up to 300 - 400K a year that would be an improvement. That's one thing Damo and I agree on and that is securing our ports and borders at the same time.

Having said that, I also think at the same time we are doing this the path to citizenship should be expedited a lot and that we should minimize the bureaucracy (sp?) and red tape for those that do make the effort to come here legally.

 

[Damocles]

That's right, and I blew my stack. You are always making me do that.

And I didn't imply you were a racist Damo. I know that you're not. I was speaking of Lou Dobbs and some of the people he has had on his show. I don't know why you always think I'm implying something about you.

Because you are quoting me while saying it...