Incels

[Dutch Uncle]

Probably because we do not have a specific cultural identity of our own. We have things like McDonald's (ugh), movies and movie stars, and Coke that have been exported and enjoyed around the world. But none of us think of those things as uniquely OURS and get annoyed at other countries for copying them. IOW they have no emotional or sacred meaning to us.

The sweat lodge thing was just an example and not meant to indicate that every indigenous group had them. As I said, they have zero power to deny anyone else the use of a sweat lodge, or a Halloween costume where the wearer is dressed like a "chief," or the use of tobacco in ritual. The conquerors always insist that the conquered assimilate and give up their own heritage and culture. The reason is because allowing them to keep it might undermine what the conquerors see as the rightful culture and identity.

Why are you all so fearful of that? Why is it so threatening to you if a group of American citizens practices their ancient religion, sometimes wears their traditional garments, or prefers their own art and music over popular culture?

Disagreed. We're Americans.

Agreed on conquerors, but that's not how it works out. Assimilation is a two-way process. Consider WWII and the conquest of Japan; how many Americans came home with Japanese brides? A liking for Japanese food? Martial arts? Religion? If you were completely correct about conquerors, then the US would be 100% Protestant and eating English food. We're not because the US is a melting pot where, as a nation, we've assimilated other cultures. The complaints about "cultural appropriation" are, IMO, anti-melting pot.

You are misunderstanding if you believe I seek to deny a group of people their religious rites. What I'm advocating is preventing that same group of people from denying others the right of practicing similar religious or cultural rites. The entire concept of "cultural appropriation" is to deny others usage of a practice, a dress, custom, etc. Another complaint of mine is that those screaming "cultural appropriation" see it as a one-way street; they seek to protect one group (e.g. Native Americans) but deny it for other groups (e.g. Irish). No one bitches about wearing green bowlers on March 17th as "cultural appropriation".

 

[Cypress]

My point is that the Christian Bible as we know it today has been through countless translations and revisions. The passages that Geeko posted in his comment still stand and are part of it. As you said, different groups cherry-pick passages to justify whatever it is that they are advocating. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church uses those NT passages to justify keeping the priesthood and hierarchy all male. Women can sing or read in church but are not allowed to lead it. The same is true of many evangelical American churches, esp. the fundie ones. Why leave these passages in their holy book? Simple: It allows men first class status, and women as submissive second class persons.

There is no question the Catholic church heirarchy is patriarchal and outdated. There is no reason for the Catholic to enter the 21st century and not allow female leaders.

There is a time and place for tradition, but Chrstianity, Judaism, Buddhism have always evolved, and female leadership is one area most religions need to do more evolving.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

A lighter take on cultural appropriation. lol

How many people have a problem with that? Not I.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Disagreed. We're Americans.

Agreed on conquerors, but that's not how it works out. Assimilation is a two-way process. Consider WWII and the conquest of Japan; how many Americans came home with Japanese brides? A liking for Japanese food? Martial arts? Religion? If you were completely correct about conquerors, then the US would be 100% Protestant and eating English food. We're not because the US is a melting pot where, as a nation, we've assimilated other cultures. The complaints about "cultural appropriation" are, IMO, anti-melting pot.

You are misunderstanding if you believe I seek to deny a group of people their religious rites. What I'm advocating is preventing that same group of people from denying others the right of practicing similar religious or cultural rites. The entire concept of "cultural appropriation" is to deny others usage of a practice, a dress, custom, etc. Another complaint of mine is that those screaming "cultural appropriation" see it as a one-way street; they seek to protect one group (e.g. Native Americans) but deny it for other groups (e.g. Irish). No one bitches about wearing green bowlers on March 17th as "cultural appropriation".

Is a Japanese bride or a green bowler hat of any deep religious or cultural significance?

I speak mostly of cultural appropriation in the context of indigenous Americans because that is the group I'm most familiar with. You want to deny them the right to their own heritage, spirituality, and culture by demanding that they not speak of cultural appropriation. Again, they have no power to deny anyone anything. Have you ever seen any proposed legislation stating that a white guy can't make a sweat lodge or put "Indian costumes" on his kids or himself at Halloween? Of course not. Do you think that as a member of one culture, you should show respect to others that are also American?

Maybe a different example might help. Remember when some star, I think it was Madonna, faked being crucified and how outraged most Christians were at this profaning -- cultural appropriation if you will -- of one of their most sacred symbols? They had no power to force the star to stop. They were also outraged at a movie scene where an actor masturbated with a crucifix. Was their outrage justified in your opinion? In mine it absolutely was justified.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It is weird how celebrity news like that gets some people so emotionally involved.

By "coat-tailing," I mean the practice of an individual singling out another individual and following their posts on the forum, and interjecting (esp. when the topic isn't of much interest otherwise) comments to the target's posts in order to get their attention, and eventually an angry reaction. You've had individuals do that to you frequently. So have I. So has Evince, Phantasmal, Jade to a lesser degree, Christiefan, Legion. It's weird.

Agreed.

Thanks for the clarification of "coat-tailing". IMO, that's just the Internet form of a feud. Hatfields and McCoys.

Paying a bum $500 to put a rock through their window might see them back off. LOL

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Is a Japanese bride or a green bowler hat of any deep religious or cultural significance?

I speak mostly of cultural appropriation in the context of indigenous Americans because that is the group I'm most familiar with. You want to deny them the right to their own heritage, spirituality, and culture by demanding that they not speak of cultural appropriation. Again, they have no power to deny anyone anything. Have you ever seen any proposed legislation stating that a white guy can't make a sweat lodge or put "Indian costumes" on his kids or himself at Halloween? Of course not. Do you think that as a member of one culture, you should show respect to others that are also American?

Maybe a different example might help. Remember when some star, I think it was Madonna, faked being crucified and how outraged most Christians were at this profaning -- cultural appropriation if you will -- of one of their most sacred symbols? They had no power to force the star to stop. They were also outraged at a movie scene where an actor masturbated with a crucifix. Was their outrage justified in your opinion? In mine it absolutely was justified.

It's culture. Are you defining "cultural appropriation" as being solely religious?

If St. Patrick's Day or Cinco de Mayo isn't cultural appropriation, then what about this?:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/aa-gill-all-hail-dawkins-high-priest-of-rationality-26q955wfbqc

People have a right to whine and complain, but I never had a problem with Madonna, "The Exorcist" or Katy Perry. OTOH, I do have a problem with anti-melting pot isolationists, partitionists and other divisive people.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

There is no question the Catholic church heirarchy is patriarchal and outdated. There is no reason for the Catholic to enter the 21st century and not allow female leaders.

There is a time and place for tradition, but Chrstianity, Judaism, Buddhism have always evolved, and female leadership is one area most religions need to do more evolving.

If they want to keep membership up, they had better start.

Nearly 30 years ago I carried on a correspondence (via snail mail -- no internet then!) with the pastor of my dad's church. I don't recall anymore if it was Episcopalian or Presbyterian. At any rate, the pastor presided over my step mother's funeral and was so very kind and caring that we struck up a friendship. She ended up leaving that church, in a little backwater Missouri town, due to the prejudice from the church's members over having a female minister. She was accused of being a lesbian because she was single. She was not; she simply devoted herself to God with the understanding that if He felt that she would be happy with a mate, He would send her one. (He did, eventually!) She was crushed that the parishioners didn't feel she was good enough, nor did many of them come to her for counseling or prayer or when they were ill and in need of solace.

This is the kind of thing that drives the faithful away.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If they want to keep membership up, they had better start.

Nearly 30 years ago I carried on a correspondence (via snail mail -- no internet then!) with the pastor of my dad's church. I don't recall anymore if it was Episcopalian or Presbyterian. At any rate, the pastor presided over my step mother's funeral and was so very kind and caring that we struck up a friendship. She ended up leaving that church, in a little backwater Missouri town, due to the prejudice from the church's members over having a female minister. She was accused of being a lesbian because she was single. She was not; she simply devoted herself to God with the understanding that if He felt that she would be happy with a mate, He would send her one. (He did, eventually!) She was crushed that the parishioners didn't feel she was good enough, nor did many of them come to her for counseling or prayer or when they were ill and in need of solace.

This is the kind of thing that drives the faithful away.

Agreed. People who are Christians accept the precept of "Love thy neighbor". If they hear other "Christians" pushing bigotry, divisiveness, hatred and the like, then it's a conflict that would drive away all except the like-minded haters.

 

[Port Tack]

An interesting and scary article, sure to trigger certain of our male posters. I wonder how many here belong to one or more of these forums?

I Joined A Popular Incel Forum — What They Really Think Of Women

"I wanted to do this for a while now. And so, a month ago, I submitted a registration form under a male pseudonym to a popular incel forum.

"It’s just one of many other online platforms created by and for men who describe themselves as "involuntary celibate" that exist within the so-called "manosphere."

"I was accepted to become a member after a couple of weeks.

"And then I began lurking around, scrolling through thousands of their posts and discussions, and joining different chatrooms to find out what’s really going on in the mind of an average incel and what they think about women.

"It was bad. Really bad. And much worse than I initially imagined."

What is an "incel" forum?

I am only a member on one political forum but used to be on another one for years and thousands of posts. My name there was "Pragmatist" but have not posted there in years. Had the same icon of Snoopy on it.

 

[Cypress]

If they want to keep membership up, they had better start.

Nearly 30 years ago I carried on a correspondence (via snail mail -- no internet then!) with the pastor of my dad's church. I don't recall anymore if it was Episcopalian or Presbyterian. At any rate, the pastor presided over my step mother's funeral and was so very kind and caring that we struck up a friendship. She ended up leaving that church, in a little backwater Missouri town, due to the prejudice from the church's members over having a female minister. She was accused of being a lesbian because she was single. She was not; she simply devoted herself to God with the understanding that if He felt that she would be happy with a mate, He would send her one. (He did, eventually!) She was crushed that the parishioners didn't feel she was good enough, nor did many of them come to her for counseling or prayer or when they were ill and in need of solace.

This is the kind of thing that drives the faithful away.

The world doesn't need jerks like that.

I always ask myself the question whether misogyny is a consequence of Christianity, or a consequence of culture.

Virtually every society, culture, religion on Earth in the last two thousand years has practiced patriarchy and misogyny. So is it the Torah or the Epistle of Titus that caused it? Or is there some deeper level of human psychology and sociology driving it?

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

What is an "incel" forum?

I am only a member on one political forum but used to be on another one for years and thousands of posts. My name there was "Pragmatist" but have not posted there in years. Had the same icon of Snoopy on it.

I really don't know, didn't know there was even such a thing until I ran across that article. I guess it's like a music forum or a gamer forum where like-minded ppl gather and blap about that interest. In the case of Incels, guess it's a place to post about how terrible women are and who wants one anyways? "Let's make them our slaves as is our due."

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

The world doesn't need jerks like that.

I always ask myself the question whether misogyny is a consequence of Christianity, or a consequence of culture.

Virtually every society, culture, religion on Earth in the last two thousand years has practiced patriarchy and misogyny. So is it the Torah or the Epistle of Titus that caused it? Or is there some deeper level of human psychology and sociology driving it?

I think that the patriarchy stuff is caused by the misogyny rather than the other way around. Humans used the concept of male superiority to form their religious beliefs and gods. Did this concept happen because males are in general physically stronger than females in general? Because males are protective of females and their children so wanted to keep them safe at home and out of danger (war, hunting, etc.)? Is it because, like many species, human males are vested in providing for their own offspring so desire to keep their women "hobbled" to ensure that they don't stray? I think there's definitely some biological reasons. Just like a new male head of a pride will kill his predecessor's offspring, so too do human males often abuse and even sometimes kill their new woman's previous children by another man.

It's interesting that there are still matriarchal cultures, but none of them are "Western."

6 Matriarchal Societies That Have Been Thriving With Women at the Helm for Centuries
In these communities around the globe, women oversee everything from politics, economics, and the broader social structure.

 

[Cypress]

I think that the patriarchy stuff is caused by the misogyny rather than the other way around. Humans used the concept of male superiority to form their religious beliefs and gods. Did this concept happen because males are in general physically stronger than females in general? Because males are protective of females and their children so wanted to keep them safe at home and out of danger (war, hunting, etc.)? Is it because, like many species, human males are vested in providing for their own offspring so desire to keep their women "hobbled" to ensure that they don't stray? I think there's definitely some biological reasons. Just like a new male head of a pride will kill his predecessor's offspring, so too do human males often abuse and even sometimes kill their new woman's previous children by another man.

It's interesting that there are still matriarchal cultures, but none of them are "Western."

6 Matriarchal Societies That Have Been Thriving With Women at the Helm for Centuries
In these communities around the globe, women oversee everything from politics, economics, and the broader social structure.

Good post

To this day female leadership is often thwarted even in the scientific professions of physics and mathematics. This has been openly discussed by female physicists and mathmeticians.

At least for me, I just feel like thinking about patriarchy requires more than just looking at some quotes from the Hebrew Bible or epistles of Paul.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think that the patriarchy stuff is caused by the misogyny rather than the other way around. Humans used the concept of male superiority to form their religious beliefs and gods. Did this concept happen because males are in general physically stronger than females in general? Because males are protective of females and their children so wanted to keep them safe at home and out of danger (war, hunting, etc.)? Is it because, like many species, human males are vested in providing for their own offspring so desire to keep their women "hobbled" to ensure that they don't stray? I think there's definitely some biological reasons. Just like a new male head of a pride will kill his predecessor's offspring, so too do human males often abuse and even sometimes kill their new woman's previous children by another man.

It's interesting that there are still matriarchal cultures, but none of them are "Western."

6 Matriarchal Societies That Have Been Thriving With Women at the Helm for Centuries
In these communities around the globe, women oversee everything from politics, economics, and the broader social structure.

Thanks for the link. Previously, the subject was discussed that patriarchy didn't become a "thing" until nomadic hunter/gatherer tribes moved to agriculture.

While anomalies always exist, calling the examples "thriving" is a bit of an exaggeration. More like "surviving" like the Amish culture is "surviving", not exactly "thriving". As the modern world encroaches upon those cultures, their young will move to the modern world.

That said, I think the next step in social evolution is a return to an egalitarian merit-based society.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Good post

To this day female leadership is often thwarted even in the scientific professions of physics and mathematics. This has been openly discussed by female physicists and mathmeticians.

At least for me, I just feel like thinking about patriarchy requires more than just looking at some quotes from the Hebrew Bible or epistles of Paul.

And also in the political realm. Notice how female politicians are judged for their looks, clothing choices, hairstyles, attractiveness vs ugliness. Males are not unless (like Trump) they make a big deal out of their so-called physical appeal. Women who manage to reach high political positions are "ball busters," "lesbians," "slept her way to the top," etc.

Patriarchy has held half the human race back from achievement.

 

[Phantasmal]

And also in the political realm. Notice how female politicians are judged for their looks, clothing choices, hairstyles, attractiveness vs ugliness. Males are not unless (like Trump) they make a big deal out of their so-called physical appeal. Women who manage to reach high political positions are "ball busters," "lesbians," "slept her way to the top," etc.

Patriarchy has held half the human race back from achievement.

Man, that is so true.

 

[Phantasmal]

And also in the political realm. Notice how female politicians are judged for their looks, clothing choices, hairstyles, attractiveness vs ugliness. Males are not unless (like Trump) they make a big deal out of their so-called physical appeal. Women who manage to reach high political positions are "ball busters," "lesbians," "slept her way to the top," etc.

Patriarchy has held half the human race back from achievement.

Hidden Numbers helped expose the fact that many accomplishments of woman are never acknowledged or in the past attributed to men.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Hidden Numbers helped expose the fact that many accomplishments of woman are never acknowledged or in the past attributed to men.

Same for the movie "Big Eyes". https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1126590/

Currently on Netflix.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

However, if others seek to punish and hang those criminals, who are you to say they aren't programmed to do so?

They are programmed to do so. That's why we must euthanize them!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

They are programmed to do so. That's why we must euthanize them!

See? Now you are consistent in your belief about free will!