Islamic Caliphate

[maineman]

No sir, they didn't! That is your conclusion and opinion, and it is not based in fact. 34,500 innocent Iraqi civilians died violent deaths because radical elements inside the country, do not want to have democracy, do not want to be civilized, and believe it is their right to slaughter innocent people to make their political point. They have fomented the sectarian violence, they have orchestrated the chaos, and you and the media have been willing accomplices all the way. Ooops!

yes they did. Our failure to adequately plan for and deal with the sectarian violence in the wake of our invasion is the proximate cause of death.... if we were going to invade Iraq and tear down the existing power structure that had done a fine job of quelling sectarian violence, we were obligated to replace it with some sort of security system that would continue to quell sectarian violence going forward...which we did not do.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Our failure to adequately plan for and deal with the sectarian violence in the wake of our invasion is the proximate cause of death....

I believe the most proximate cause are the ones doing the killing. If they would stop killing people, I do believe the deaths would stop. Don't you?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

we were obligated to replace it with some sort of security system that would continue to quell sectarian violence going forward

And are we still so obligated, Maine? Do we not STILL have this obligation to see to it, that Iraq has a viable security structure, and ability to quell the sectarian violence going forward? Or is it YOUR party who is advocating we just throw up our hands and quit, give up on this whole idea, and impeach the president? No need to send more troops, we've failed... we've blown it... it's over... let the radicals have Iraq... who cares, just get this mess over now! That is YOUR position on this war! You don't really give a fuck about Iraq's future, you never did! You were content to see them remain victims of Saddam's wood chippers and rape rooms for another generation or two!

 

[Cypress]

Our failure to adequately plan for and deal with the sectarian violence in the wake of our invasion is the proximate cause of death....

I believe the most proximate cause are the ones doing the killing. If they would stop killing people, I do believe the deaths would stop. Don't you?

Is this really how you're going to morally rationalize your role in igniting a civil war?

Do you really live in a world of moral relativism, where you can dismiss your role in creating a civil war, because some other bad guy is "more" to blame than you?

 

[maineman]

we were obligated to replace it with some sort of security system that would continue to quell sectarian violence going forward

And are we still so obligated, Maine? Do we not STILL have this obligation to see to it, that Iraq has a viable security structure, and ability to quell the sectarian violence going forward? Or is it YOUR party who is advocating we just throw up our hands and quit, give up on this whole idea, and impeach the president? No need to send more troops, we've failed... we've blown it... it's over... let the radicals have Iraq... who cares, just get this mess over now! That is YOUR position on this war! You don't really give a fuck about Iraq's future, you never did! You were content to see them remain victims of Saddam's wood chippers and rape rooms for another generation or two!

ah yes... somehow I knew that Dixie would bring up the rape rooms and wood chippers again.

Dixie...we HAD an obligation to bring enough force to bear to PREVENT sectarian violence from ever occuring PERIOD in the wake of our dismantlement of the former Iraqi security apparatus. We FAILED at that obligation... and now, the task is beyond our doing with the forces we have on the ground even with the additional 21.5K we are sending. Our failure was allowing it to start. Now that it has started and gained a degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy, it is beyond our ability to control. The Iraqis will have to decide when to stop killing one another. Our presence there is having a counterproductive and deleterious effect. It is time to disengage and, in so doing, dampen the ardor of the protagonists... we only add gasoline to the fire by remaining

 

[maineman]

Our failure to adequately plan for and deal with the sectarian violence in the wake of our invasion is the proximate cause of death....

I believe the most proximate cause are the ones doing the killing. If they would stop killing people, I do believe the deaths would stop. Don't you?

clearly, the insurgents who are killing one another are MORE to blame than we are, but, saying that does not make us blameless. We are FAR from blameless in this matter.... had we not invaded, there would not be this sectarian carnage.

We set this terrible thing in motion...that is ALL on us.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Is this really how you're going to morally rationalize your role in igniting a civil war?

Do you really live in a world of moral relativism, where you can dismiss your role in creating a civil war, because some other bad guy is "more" to blame than you?

Hey, it works when you guys do it? Right?

Look, I don't completely buy into the notion this is technically a civil war. It's certainly not the classic conventional or traditional understanding of civil war, there is no border dispute, opposing military, DMZ, etc. You have the Iraqi Unity Govt, and you have two groups of sectarians (extremists) battling each other for power. The sectarian extremists who are "waring" in Iraq, represent less than 25% of the population. 75% of Iraq, are not sectarian extremists, and wish to support a Unity government, and have democracy and peace.

What you fail to understand is the 'igniting of civil war' as you put it, was caused by Zarqawi, alQaeda, and the disgruntled Saddam loyalists, fueled by Iran and Syria, OBL and others who do not want to see Democracy succeed in Iraq, and will do anything they can to stop it. This includes using terror tactics, using the liberal media, killing their own people, it doesn't matter at this point, they will do anything to win.

 

[uscitizen]

I am just glad that Bush is still taking full responsibility for the war. "I am the decider".

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie...we HAD an obligation to bring enough force to bear to PREVENT sectarian violence from ever occuring PERIOD in the wake of our dismantlement of the former Iraqi security apparatus.

We just got through arguing about the careless bombing in shock and awe, now you are telling me we didn't bring enough force? I agree that complete dismantling of the Iraq security force was a poor decision, it turned out to be the wrong thing to do, but the thinking at the time was well-reasoned, we simply didn't know who could be trusted. No one is going to argue there haven't been some tactical mistakes, in fact, I agree with much of what Newt Gingrich has said about the aftermath, and how we blew it when we placed an interim leader in Baghdad.


We FAILED at that obligation...

The obligation to provide Iraq with the training and ability to protect itself, is ongoing, Maine. That is what we are currently doing, we haven't failed. We are fulfilling this very obligation as we speak.


and now, the task is beyond our doing with the forces we have on the ground even with the additional 21.5K we are sending.

No, it's not. I actually think it should have been more than that, somewhere in the range of 80k, but you agreed with me at one time on this. If we can influx enough support to make a difference in training and getting the Iraqi's prepared to defend their country, we should at least try it, before we just give up and leave!


Our failure was allowing it to start.

We didn't "allow" it to, you just said, it was a mistake in judgement.

Now that it has started and gained a degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy, it is beyond our ability to control.

So, the United States Armed Forces are not capable of controlling or handling any force which has gained any degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy? Interesting theory you have there, Maine... please expound?


The Iraqis will have to decide when to stop killing one another.

Most of them support not killing one another. I think they did a poll.

Our presence there is having a counterproductive and deleterious effect.

Amazing! It's the EXACT same message as the TERRORISTS!


It is time to disengage and, in so doing, dampen the ardor of the protagonists... we only add gasoline to the fire by remaining


Ahhhhh... so it's time to abandon our obligations you mentioned before? And this is why they love us so much around the world, right? What it's time to do, is roll up our sleeves and finish the job in true American fashion. To put aside this silly notion of failure, and do what we set out to do in the first place, establish a democracy in Iraq, and provide them with the tools to keep their people safe. It's typical phony selfish liberalism to just bail on your obligations like that, but you don't really give a shit. You'll do it in a heartbeat, if it serves your selfish personal interests, and you'll concoct some justifiable spin to excuse your pathetic behavior and keep doing it.

 

[maineman]

it just makes me so tired trying to reason with you.... it really is just like Brer Rabbit felt punching the tarbaby.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So, I guess that means you aren't going to expound on your theory about the United States Armed Forces not being capable of controlling or handling any force which has gained any degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy?


Damn! Too bad! I was looking forward to hearing that one!

 

[maineman]

So, I guess that means you aren't going to expound on your theory about the United States Armed Forces not being capable of controlling or handling any force which has gained any degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy?


Damn! Too bad! I was looking forward to hearing that one!

Dixie..of COURSE the United States Armed Forces has the firepower and brute force available at its fingertips to permanently crush the Iraqi insurgency. We have the power to turn the entire country into a sheet of radioactive molten glass imbedded with the charred remains of 28 million people. Is that really what you are suggesting? that we bring the full force and power of the entire United States military to bear on the country of Iraq? Do you really think that the only way to save this country from the sectarian violence is to kill em all? That would work, no doubt, but somehow, I am not sure that makes a great deal of sense.... and if we did that, and redeployed our resources all over the globe to bring them all to bear on Iraq, do you think that the AQ sleeper cells in Europe and elsewhere might think that was a downright duckie time to do something to our people or our interests somewhere else?

What DO you and your hottie in bluejeans from Crawford have in mind? Seems to me that HE "listened to the will of the people as expressed in the novembert election and HE has decided that flushing another 21.5K troops - a drop in the old bucket, so to speak, will do the trick just fine. If you want this allout onslaught, aren't you mad at your loverboy now?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie..of COURSE the United States Armed Forces has the firepower and brute force available at its fingertips to permanently crush the Iraqi insurgency.

Then that is what we need to do at this point, and stop this silly banter about not being able to. "Now that it has started and gained a degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy, it is beyond our ability to control." Is not actually a true statement, is it? We DO have the capability to control the situation, don't we?

 

[maineman]

Dixie..of COURSE the United States Armed Forces has the firepower and brute force available at its fingertips to permanently crush the Iraqi insurgency.

Then that is what we need to do at this point, and stop this silly banter about not being able to. "Now that it has started and gained a degree of self-sustaining and expanding energy, it is beyond our ability to control." Is not actually a true statement, is it? We DO have the capability to control the situation, don't we?

sure... but we would, unfortunately, not be able to simultaneously do that and honor the rest of our military commitments around the globe... or be at all ready to deal with any OTHER issues that might present themselves in places like...say... North Korea.

It is like I have the ability, on any given month, to pay off ALLof my home equity loan....I just wouldn't have any money to pay off all of my OTHER bills.

Bush's dumbass 21.5K "surge" is a drop in the bucket...it will amount to nothing and will only serve to put MORE Americans in the crosshairs of Iraqi insurgents pissed off by our very presence.

Really fucking smart.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

It is like I have the ability, on any given month, to pay off ALLof my home equity loan....I just wouldn't have any money to pay off all of my OTHER bills.

What if the situation was, you pay off your home equity loan this month or lose your home to terrorists? Would you figure out some way to do it, and worry about paying your bills later? I think you probably would, if it were a priority, and you knew you had to do that, you would figure out some way to not lose your home. This is the situation in Iraq, we can't afford to abandon them now, we are too invested already, and we better figure out a way to make it work, or they are coming after us.

I agree, 21k is not nearly enough, it should have been at least 50k, but probably 80-100k realistically, to get the job done that needs to be done there. The LAST thing that needs to happen, is precipitous withdrawal.

 

[Lao Tse]

it just makes me so tired trying to reason with you.... it really is just like Brer Rabbit felt punching the tarbaby.

Ya, kind of like dealing with you about the nature of islam. It's simply not peaceful, as an ideology.

 

[maineman]

Ya, kind of like dealing with you about the nature of islam. It's simply not peaceful, as an ideology.

no.... it really is. There are, no doubt, extreme elements that have perverted the message of that religion and are anything but peaceful, but the average muslim-in-the-street is just as peaceful as you or me.

 

[maineman]

It is like I have the ability, on any given month, to pay off ALLof my home equity loan....I just wouldn't have any money to pay off all of my OTHER bills.

What if the situation was, you pay off your home equity loan this month or lose your home to terrorists? Would you figure out some way to do it, and worry about paying your bills later? I think you probably would, if it were a priority, and you knew you had to do that, you would figure out some way to not lose your home. This is the situation in Iraq, we can't afford to abandon them now, we are too invested already, and we better figure out a way to make it work, or they are coming after us.

I agree, 21k is not nearly enough, it should have been at least 50k, but probably 80-100k realistically, to get the job done that needs to be done there. The LAST thing that needs to happen, is precipitous withdrawal.

fallacy. The sound bite that we need to defeat Iraqis in Iraq or they will be coming after us is not based in reality. THe people fighting in Iraq are Iraqis fighting to control the destiny of THEIR country. They have no designs on ours.

And personally, I doubt that even 100K - even if we had them to muster up - would be anywhere near sufficient to stem the tide of this civil war. And we both know that 21.5K is all we are going to get now... and that won't be enough to make any meaningful difference.... so...if it won't MAKE a difference, why do it? Why put 21.5K more Americans in the crosshairs of insurgents if they won't make any substantive difference in the course of the conflict?

I think the word "precipitous" is a loaded one.... sort of like "hasty". I think that we need to tell Iraq that we will be leaving and leaving soon... I think we need to pull our troops out of the mean streets of urban Iraq and place them on the border where they CAN make a difference in interdicting the flow of weapons and reinforcements from without. And then, after a while... and that "while" should be measured in months and not years... we begin withdrawing our troops. This civil war will rage until they lose the stomach for death... or until their political leaders can work out a meaningful arrangement for sharing the resources and the power. Our troops can do nothing to make that happen. We should not be in the line of fire and have our troops dying for someone ELSE's freedom.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

We should not be in the line of fire and have our troops dying for someone ELSE's freedom.

Dixie...we HAD an obligation to bring enough force to bear to PREVENT sectarian violence from ever occurring PERIOD in the wake of our dismantlement of the former Iraqi security apparatus.

You admit that we HAD an obligation here, now you are claiming we just need to leave. What happened to our obligation? It hasn't been fulfilled, so it still exists, and what you are suggesting, simply ignores this obligation.

 

[maineman]

We should not be in the line of fire and have our troops dying for someone ELSE's freedom.

Dixie...we HAD an obligation to bring enough force to bear to PREVENT sectarian violence from ever occurring PERIOD in the wake of our dismantlement of the former Iraqi security apparatus.

You admit that we HAD an obligation here, now you are claiming we just need to leave. What happened to our obligation? It hasn't been fulfilled, so it still exists, and what you are suggesting, simply ignores this obligation.

if you had an obligation to prevent the Mississippi River from flooding.... and it flooded anyway.... you failed in your obligation. That failure does not automatically mean that you now have an obligation to find everyone whose home was flooded a new place to live.

We failed in our post war planning.... and that failure stands. We fucked up and there is no way to UNFUCK that. Now we look at where we are TODAY, and ask ourselves what is our best option going forward. Wasting time throwing money and bodies at a burning bonfire of a civil war is not our best option, even though we had a moral obligation to put enough force onthe ground at the beginning to prevent sectarian violence from ever happening. That failure is written in ink. It has been overtaken by events.