JEFFREY TOOBIN: ABORTION will be ILLEGAL in 20 states in 18 months...

Thing1 said:
"Controlling women" is probably too broad. No doubt, there are those on the pro-life side who are sincere, and probably many.

But there are those who hide behind the "sanctity of life" stuff. They don't really care about life. Many are the same who enthusiastically support unnecessary wars, the death penalty and other policies which are as far from the sanctity of life as you can get.
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Comparing the death penalty to abortion is a farce. It is not the same in the least. I fully support the death penalty for those convicted of heinous crimes. Bundy, McVeigh, Dahmer etc... fuck them. Put them down. That said, anyone sentenced to death (especially minorities) prior to the turn of the century, should have sentences altered to life. Way too many cases of prejudice and wrongful convictions.

There is a also a difference when it comes to war. Obviously we disagree on the Iraq war. You think it was unnecessary, I disagree. That doesn't mean you go happily bombing/killing innocents. Again... key difference is being innocent. The unborn did nothing wrong. Neither do many civilians in a war. Thus you do not target innocents. You do not deliberately kill innocents. Sometimes they will get killed in a war, that does happen. Same as with abortion, sometimes it comes down to the life of the mother vs. the child and one (or both) may die.
 
Old Trapper said:
The Courts are hard pressed to overturn (reverse) an action that has become a well established fact of life in American society, and I seriously doubt a State can reverse what is basically Federal Law.
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States can pass any laws they want to pass. With a new SCOTUS, some of them will pass abortion bans. Those will be challenged in courts until they reach the SCOTUS. The next bench very well could (and probably will) overturn Roe v Wade. That returns the issue to the states. In states that outlaw abortion, women will be less free. That's the concern.
 
Nordberg said:
here we go again with the pro birthers. they want a person who thinks she is incapable of raising a child to have one anyway. There are lots of credible reasons that a child can wreck plans and hurt a family. People who are not ready and not able to raise kids do get pregnant. People get raped. They get molested by family, fathers, brothers uncles and friends of the family. We don't all live in a TV family with great controls and assets.

If the religious people really want a child to have a baby, they should set up funding to school the kid, help with child care, provide healthcare and psychological help. But the fact is they want to force a stranger who does not want a baby, to have one. Then they walk away from the problems they created.
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Or perhaps we want the couple to fucking plan ahead. You have to be pretty fucking stupid to not know how pregnancies occur. So if you know how they occur and know you are not able to raise kids, then take measures to make sure you don't get pregnant. You seem to think that people just magically find out they aren't ready once they get pregnant.

The number of abortions that occur due to the woman being raped are a very tiny percentage of the total number of abortions.

Funny how ironic it is that you talk about people trying to walk away from the problem they created. Because that is precisely what the majority of abortions are about.
 
Superfreak said:
Comparing the death penalty to abortion is a farce. It is not the same in the least. I fully support the death penalty for those convicted of heinous crimes. Bundy, McVeigh, Dahmer etc... fuck them. Put them down. That said, anyone sentenced to death (especially minorities) prior to the turn of the century, should have sentences altered to life. Way too many cases of prejudice and wrongful convictions.

There is a also a difference when it comes to war. Obviously we disagree on the Iraq war. You think it was unnecessary, I disagree. That doesn't mean you go happily bombing/killing innocents. Again... key difference is being innocent. The unborn did nothing wrong. Neither do many civilians in a war. Thus you do not target innocents. You do not deliberately kill innocents. Sometimes they will get killed in a war, that does happen. Same as with abortion, sometimes it comes down to the life of the mother vs. the child and one (or both) may die.
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I will always have a hard time accepting the sincerity of a pro-lifer who was also enthusiastically supportive of the Iraq invasion.

Honestly, I think some on the pro-life side are too dug in ideologically to ever see the forest for the trees. I find opposition to abortion at the very early stages of a pregnancy to be extreme, draconian and irrational. To look at a microscopic clump of cells and use "murder" makes no sense to me on an intellectual or humanistic level. I particularly object to those who oppose stem cell research or the use of frozen embryos that could greatly benefit the lives of others, and certainly to misguided people like that pharmacist the other day who refused to give a woman who was already carrying a dead fetus a prescription that would help her induce a miscarriage.

I have always felt that it becomes more murky as the pregnancy moves on. I oppose late-term abortions. I think once factors like cognizance, viability and awareness come into play, it changes the equation. That's why I think Roe is as good a compromise between the 2 sides as we will get.
 
Thing1 said:
I will always have a hard time accepting the sincerity of a pro-lifer who was also enthusiastically supportive of the Iraq invasion.

Honestly, I think some on the pro-life side are too dug in ideologically to ever see the forest for the trees. I find opposition to abortion at the very early stages of a pregnancy to be extreme, draconian and irrational. To look at a microscopic clump of cells and use "murder" makes no sense to me on an intellectual or humanistic level. I particularly object to those who oppose stem cell research or the use of frozen embryos that could greatly benefit the lives of others, and certainly to misguided people like that pharmacist the other day who refused to give a woman who was already carrying a dead fetus a prescription that would help her induce a miscarriage.

I have always felt that it becomes more murky as the pregnancy moves on. I oppose late-term abortions. I think once factors like cognizance, viability and awareness come into play, it changes the equation. That's why I think Roe is as good a compromise between the 2 sides as we will get.
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That is because you don't get the phrase 'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing'.

Again, we can argue all day on the merits of the war. About the atrocities taking place and either doing something about it or not. The Iraqi people are arguably better off today than they would have been had we not gone in. they are not starving, being beaten, raped and killed by the Saddam regime. The Rwandan people were worse off because we stood by and did nothing.

If anything it is the pro-abortion side dug in. Which is why so many on that side continue to pretend it isn't a human life. They try everything they can to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify killing the child.

We are all clumps of cells... that attempt is just one of many the pro abortion crowd uses to dehumanize.
 
Superfreak said:
That is because you don't get the phrase 'The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing'.

Again, we can argue all day on the merits of the war. About the atrocities taking place and either doing something about it or not. The Iraqi people are arguably better off today than they would have been had we not gone in. they are not starving, being beaten, raped and killed by the Saddam regime. The Rwandan people were worse off because we stood by and did nothing.

If anything it is the pro-abortion side dug in. Which is why so many on that side continue to pretend it isn't a human life. They try everything they can to dehumanize the unborn in order to justify killing the child.

We are all clumps of cells... that attempt is just one of many the pro abortion crowd uses to dehumanize.
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The extremists on both sides are those who refuse to accept and acknowledge the complexities surrounding this issue.

I fully equate those who oppose abortion right from the moment of conception with those who call for abortion on demand through the entire term of a pregnancy. It's the same basic black & white point of view; the same uncompromising nature.

Maybe clump of cells (factual) sounds dehumanizing because a clump of cells is NOT a human; it is a potential human. You fail to see that murder is taking someone's life away - all that they know. A zygote knows nothing; there is no brain function, no awareness, no viability.
 
Thing1 said:
The extremists on both sides are those who refuse to accept and acknowledge the complexities surrounding this issue.

I fully equate those who oppose abortion right from the moment of conception with those who call for abortion on demand through the entire term of a pregnancy. It's the same basic black & white point of view; the same uncompromising nature.

Maybe clump of cells (factual) sounds dehumanizing because a clump of cells is NOT a human; it is a potential human. You fail to see that murder is taking someone's life away - all that they know. A zygote knows nothing; there is no brain function, no awareness, no viability.
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It is that level of scientific ignorance that I am talking about. No, it is not a potential human. It doesn't magically turn human... if you believe it does, then by all means provide the scientific definition of when it magically turns human.

It is genetically human the entire time. It is either alive or dead. If alive, then it is a human life. If dead, then no need for an abortion.

If you meant to differentiate as to whether it was sentient or not, that is another topic and certainly on that point is where I think the debate should be held from a legal perspective. When should the unborn be granted basic human rights. I think that argument is valid to have. Should it be when the heartbeat is detectable? When the brain functions are high enough to feel/sense pain?

But saying it isn't human is not up for debate. It cannot be anything other than human. It is genetically impossible.
 
Superfreak said:
So what do you call it when you deliberately end a human life?
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Gods will. a third of pregnancies end by themselves, so god is not exactly on board as against ending pregnancies.

They are not human life when aborted. You might call them potential human life. So you are also against masturbation?
 
Superfreak said:
It is that level of scientific ignorance that I am talking about. No, it is not a potential human. It doesn't magically turn human... if you believe it does, then by all means provide the scientific definition of when it magically turns human.

It is genetically human the entire time. It is either alive or dead. If alive, then it is a human life. If dead, then no need for an abortion.

If you meant to differentiate as to whether it was sentient or not, that is another topic and certainly on that point is where I think the debate should be held from a legal perspective. When should the unborn be granted basic human rights. I think that argument is valid to have. Should it be when the heartbeat is detectable? When the brain functions are high enough to feel/sense pain?

But saying it isn't human is not up for debate. It cannot be anything other than human. It is genetically impossible.
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That's why I was careful to put "a" in front of human. It is human - a human zygote, fetus or other stage of development. The implication of my statement is that it is NOT a fully realized human being.

I agree w/ your 3rd paragraph about the things that should be considered for legal debate.
 
Thing1 said:
They live & breathe it. I can read a textbook on brain surgery, also.
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you need to pay a bit more attention to the federal cases that happen. they do not live and breathe it at all. better than 80% don't even care about whats constitutional or not.

It’s funny to talk about the oath judges take to uphold the constitution since the Supreme Court has transformed the Constitution in its decisions. The oath is not really to the original constitution, or to the constitution as amended. It is to some body of law created by the Supreme Court. You can forget about the oath. That is not of significance.
 
Thing1 said:
I will always have a hard time accepting the sincerity of a pro-lifer who was also enthusiastically supportive of the Iraq invasion.
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/shrugs......and I find it hard to care about the acceptance of someone who favors a "right" to kill children.......
 
Thing1 said:
I particularly object to those who oppose stem cell research or the use of frozen embryos that could greatly benefit the lives of others.
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I know, right?.....next they'll be claiming we can't breed black people and harvest their organs for transplants.......
 
Nordberg said:
Gods will. a third of pregnancies end by themselves, so god is not exactly on board as against ending pregnancies.

They are not human life when aborted. You might call them potential human life. So you are also against masturbation?
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how can you not know the difference between sperm and a zygote.......did you sleep through the class on reproduction?.......
 
Thing1 said:
That's why I was careful to put "a" in front of human. It is human - a human zygote, fetus or other stage of development. The implication of my statement is that it is NOT a fully realized human being.
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and how many JPP posters are "fully realized"?........
 
Centerleftfl said:
Good luck there ladies. Keep a credit card tucked away in case you have to FLY somewhere long distance to exercise your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. Toobin has become more and more frustrated but he's NOT a flamethrower.

But not to worry, ONLY the poor women who don't have assets and American Express cards who are trapped are the ones who will really suffer. You know the ones that can afford it the most.

Abortion will be illegal in 20 states in 18 months’: Jeffrey Toobin issues haunting prediction

BOB BRIGHAM
27 JUN 2018 AT 14:31 ET

following news that Associate Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy will be leaving from the court.

Toobin, a former federal prosecutor in New York, is a longtime friend of Justice Elena Kagan, from their time together as classmates at Harvard Law School.

“Anthony Kennedy is retiring. Abortion will be illegal in twenty states in 18 months,” Toobin predicted.


✔@JeffreyToobin
Anthony Kennedy is retiring. Abortion will be illegal in twenty states in 18 months. #SCOTUS

2:06 PM - Jun 27, 2018

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/ab...hs-jeffrey-toobin-issues-haunting-prediction/
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Burqas on sale at JC Penney’s through Saturday, must have male chaperone.
 
Nordberg said:
The Supremes cannot end abortion. They did it many years ago and it just drove it underground where it was dangerous and expensive. Desperate kids went for back alley abortions where many got maimed and some died. Some got beaten and robbed. But desperate kids kept trying.

Many tried self abortion which ended in disaster and often emergency rooms.

If they had money they went on vacation to a country that had it and came back 5 lbs 6 oz lighter. laws don't mean the same to those with money. Never have, never will.

Abortion did not end when it was illegal.
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Let them use all the coat hangers they want.
 
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