Leaving Iraq, Honorably
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
welcome to my world!
I think I said this in a post before.
I wouldn't address Darla directly either if I were you Dixie. She'd rip your ass to shreds.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
It isn't the fact that SH was a brutal dictator. Brutal dictators occur everywhere, some with our support.
What matters is the fact that we pulled the scab from a superating wound, the schism between Shia and Sunni, that was Iraqi society. Anyone with any sense, who was not blinded by idealistic notions about the 'power of democracy', could see that, in the context of the fact that our task is to defeat Islamic extremism, creating such a running sore is poor strategy. This is something some of us have been saying since the beginning.
And it has turned out like this. Shia and Sunni are fighting each other in a situation that is as easily described as a civil war as sectarian violence, with the pot being stirred by the existence of, and actions of, the Coalition and foreign fighters.
When you consider the context that we are attempting to defeat Islamic extremism, we have handed our enemies a victory, a situation that they can easily utilise and we cannot, a situation that garners recruits to their side and not ours, a situation that provides them with support and training.
However you feel about SH, no matter how brutal, (although strange that Dixie isn't pleading the case against Mugabe), our removal of him was an error at his point in time, an error that has lost us a major defeat.
In Imperial Japan, those that lost major defeats fell on their swords. Good idea.
What matters is the fact that we pulled the scab from a superating wound, the schism between Shia and Sunni, that was Iraqi society. Anyone with any sense, who was not blinded by idealistic notions about the 'power of democracy', could see that, in the context of the fact that our task is to defeat Islamic extremism, creating such a running sore is poor strategy. This is something some of us have been saying since the beginning.
And it has turned out like this. Shia and Sunni are fighting each other in a situation that is as easily described as a civil war as sectarian violence, with the pot being stirred by the existence of, and actions of, the Coalition and foreign fighters.
When you consider the context that we are attempting to defeat Islamic extremism, we have handed our enemies a victory, a situation that they can easily utilise and we cannot, a situation that garners recruits to their side and not ours, a situation that provides them with support and training.
However you feel about SH, no matter how brutal, (although strange that Dixie isn't pleading the case against Mugabe), our removal of him was an error at his point in time, an error that has lost us a major defeat.
In Imperial Japan, those that lost major defeats fell on their swords. Good idea.
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AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
In 2056, we can have the debate over whether Bush's invasion of Iraq was for better or worse, and to do so before, is ignorant short-sided emotionalism.
So we should only debate things that occurred 50 years ago, else we cannot do it justice.
So we should only debate things that occurred 50 years ago, else we cannot do it justice.
Dixie you are a fool. You are also a useful idiot. I was watching FOX news last night, as I'm sure you were, and I saw that moron Fred Barnes mouthing the latest bush line about how he was going to lay down the law to Maliki. You see, this is going to change everything. Relax American people, bush is going to lay down the law to Maliki and tell him, look pal, you better put a stop to this shit or else.
But what Fred Barnes knows, and what you don't know Dixie, is that Maliki is powerless. He is irrelevant. See, Fred Barnes is a liar. You're just stupid.
Maliki will do nothing because he can do nothing. Al Sadr is the power in Iraq, and he has a larger READY and TRAINED army than the Iraqi government has. Maliki serves at his pleasure, not at bush's. Maliki steps out of line, and he is a dead man. And eventually, if we stay, we will come to a face to face confrontation with Sadr and his forces, and then there will be a bloodbath Dixie, and then the war will widen drawing in other countries. That is what is facing us Dixie. That is what is facing our troops. Body bags.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Al Sadr is the power in Iraq, and he has a larger READY and TRAINED army than the Iraqi government has.
Really? So this bunch of rag-tag misfits who can't even seem to coordinate attacks with each other, and who have no affiliation with outside terror organizations, have just managed to put together a larger army than the US and Iraq, with billions of dollars and state-of-the-art American technology at their disposal.
Where are they getting their arsenal of weapons? Does Sadr have a magic lamp he rubs, and IEDs mysteriously appear? Maybe his "soldiers" just pull their weapons out of their ass when it's time to fight? There has to be some explanation for this, since Sadr doesn't control any means of weapons production, and no outside sources are assisting him.
If what you say is true, and Sadr has a bigger army, that means there are now over 300,000 insurgents, where just a few months ago, the most liberal estimates were around 20,000. At this rate of growth, Sadr will have a million man army by the first of the year! ...We might need a draft!
Darla, you are a girl, you think like a girl, and so do all the people who agree with you on this. America, fortunately, doesn't fight wars based on what girls think. Running away from Iraq with our tails between our legs, because Sadr has an "army" that might cause us harm, is a sure-fire way to be chased by a bully. The very thing you present as rationale for leaving, is the very reason we can't leave, and your inability to understand this, is related to your gender.
Go shop for some boots, and leave the fighting to the men folk, sweetie.
Really? So this bunch of rag-tag misfits who can't even seem to coordinate attacks with each other, and who have no affiliation with outside terror organizations, have just managed to put together a larger army than the US and Iraq, with billions of dollars and state-of-the-art American technology at their disposal.
Where are they getting their arsenal of weapons? Does Sadr have a magic lamp he rubs, and IEDs mysteriously appear? Maybe his "soldiers" just pull their weapons out of their ass when it's time to fight? There has to be some explanation for this, since Sadr doesn't control any means of weapons production, and no outside sources are assisting him.
If what you say is true, and Sadr has a bigger army, that means there are now over 300,000 insurgents, where just a few months ago, the most liberal estimates were around 20,000. At this rate of growth, Sadr will have a million man army by the first of the year! ...We might need a draft!
Darla, you are a girl, you think like a girl, and so do all the people who agree with you on this. America, fortunately, doesn't fight wars based on what girls think. Running away from Iraq with our tails between our legs, because Sadr has an "army" that might cause us harm, is a sure-fire way to be chased by a bully. The very thing you present as rationale for leaving, is the very reason we can't leave, and your inability to understand this, is related to your gender.
Go shop for some boots, and leave the fighting to the men folk, sweetie.
For the record, I thought Dixie was a chick for about 3-4 months when I first started posting. His posts are still pretty girlish...leaving FP in a huff not once, but twice...coming on here the day after the election, hands on his hips, testily claiming that all lives lost in Iraq from 11/8 on will be the fault of Democrats....he's definitely pretty in tune with his feminine side...
maineman
Banned
you don't need a bunch of high tech high pricetag military hardware to field a well trained and ready fighting force. THe Iraqi army might be 300K, but they ain't trained for shit. They are corrupt and infiltrated with sectarian militia members. Sadr's force is well trained, and ready and kicks ass against sunnis and Iraqi units with regularity. Iraq doesn't HAVE a functional armed force.... it's police force is totally infiltrated by the organizations it is intended to police. What WILL happen to this vibrant multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom when Sadr's party pulls out of the government after today's meeting between Maliki and Bush?
Civil war.
maineman
Banned
I think you ought to restrict that further...leave the fighting to the menfolk who were not too "incapable" of fighting.
If Dixie wants to exclude women from the discussion and from the "fighting", then Menfolk whose only experience is as a member of the brave 101st fighting keyboardists really should not be allowed to participate in the discussions either.
Dixie's military experience could fit inside a coffee cup and there would still be room for a cup of coffee.
"menfolk" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
what a condescending prick.
maineman
Banned
bingo
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
you don't need a bunch of high tech high pricetag military hardware to field a well trained and ready fighting force.
You do, if you are going up against a superpower like the US. There is a valid reason for us spending trillions of dollars on that technology, and it wasn't so a bunch of 5th century weekend warriors could defeat us.
THe Iraqi army might be 300K, but they ain't trained for shit.
And you know this because you are there with them, witnessing first-hand, the training of Iraqi forces? No, you are talking out of your ass again.
They are corrupt and infiltrated with sectarian militia members.
Not really, there have been some isolated cases, just like the LAPD has some morons on their force, and our own military produced Timothy McVeigh. Again, here you are with the over-the-top melodrama, acting like a 13-year-old girl.
Sadr's force is well trained, and ready and kicks ass against sunnis and Iraqi units with regularity.
And you know this, because you are there with them, watching them train? Perhaps you can give me a link to the stories on which battles they have won, and what cities they currently hold in Iraq. All I can find is stories about car bombs and IED's, not exactly what most armies consider "kicking ass" from a warfare standpoint.
Iraq doesn't HAVE a functional armed force....
Sure they do, they are 300,000 strong and growing. Where have you been?
it's police force is totally infiltrated by the organizations it is intended to police.
Not true again. Sorry, I can't let you get away with more over-the-top melodrama here. There have been isolated incidents, just like we have isolated incidents here... we don't live in a perfect world, and neither do Iraqis.
What WILL happen to this vibrant multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom when Sadr's party pulls out of the government after today's meeting between Maliki and Bush?
Well, I don't know, and I suppose time will tell. IMO, the sooner Sadr is pushing up daisies, the better. Your tone here, sounds like you are actually rooting for the democracy to collapse. Do you think that a collapsing democracy in Iraq is going to be the best thing for the US or Iraq? If that's the case, please explain it to me, because I don't get how that helps.
You do, if you are going up against a superpower like the US. There is a valid reason for us spending trillions of dollars on that technology, and it wasn't so a bunch of 5th century weekend warriors could defeat us.
THe Iraqi army might be 300K, but they ain't trained for shit.
And you know this because you are there with them, witnessing first-hand, the training of Iraqi forces? No, you are talking out of your ass again.
They are corrupt and infiltrated with sectarian militia members.
Not really, there have been some isolated cases, just like the LAPD has some morons on their force, and our own military produced Timothy McVeigh. Again, here you are with the over-the-top melodrama, acting like a 13-year-old girl.
Sadr's force is well trained, and ready and kicks ass against sunnis and Iraqi units with regularity.
And you know this, because you are there with them, watching them train? Perhaps you can give me a link to the stories on which battles they have won, and what cities they currently hold in Iraq. All I can find is stories about car bombs and IED's, not exactly what most armies consider "kicking ass" from a warfare standpoint.
Iraq doesn't HAVE a functional armed force....
Sure they do, they are 300,000 strong and growing. Where have you been?
it's police force is totally infiltrated by the organizations it is intended to police.
Not true again. Sorry, I can't let you get away with more over-the-top melodrama here. There have been isolated incidents, just like we have isolated incidents here... we don't live in a perfect world, and neither do Iraqis.
What WILL happen to this vibrant multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom when Sadr's party pulls out of the government after today's meeting between Maliki and Bush?
Well, I don't know, and I suppose time will tell. IMO, the sooner Sadr is pushing up daisies, the better. Your tone here, sounds like you are actually rooting for the democracy to collapse. Do you think that a collapsing democracy in Iraq is going to be the best thing for the US or Iraq? If that's the case, please explain it to me, because I don't get how that helps.
That love letter he wrote to bush on FP almost had me convinced he was a chick.
maineman
Banned
you don't need a bunch of high tech high pricetag military hardware to field a well trained and ready fighting force.
You do, if you are going up against a superpower like the US. There is a valid reason for us spending trillions of dollars on that technology, and it wasn't so a bunch of 5th century weekend warriors could defeat us.
Interesting..... one wonders how the Vietcong were able to carry on like they did for all those years and kill 55 thousand of us when we were so well equipped with all that high tech stuff and they were so ill equipped?
THe Iraqi army might be 300K, but they ain't trained for shit.
And you know this because you are there with them, witnessing first-hand, the training of Iraqi forces? No, you are talking out of your ass again.
the sources of my information are unknown to you. As a matter of fact, I am in weekly email contact with several active duty personnel in Iraq. They HAVE witnessed these things first hand. I know them. I trust them. I believe them. I do NOT believe you.
They are corrupt and infiltrated with sectarian militia members.
Not really, there have been some isolated cases, just like the LAPD has some morons on their force, and our own military produced Timothy McVeigh. Again, here you are with the over-the-top melodrama, acting like a 13-year-old girl.
not according to my sources
Sadr's force is well trained, and ready and kicks ass against sunnis and Iraqi units with regularity.
And you know this, because you are there with them, watching them train? Perhaps you can give me a link to the stories on which battles they have won, and what cities they currently hold in Iraq. All I can find is stories about car bombs and IED's, not exactly what most armies consider "kicking ass" from a warfare standpoint.
that is what happens when you must rely on the media for all your knowledge. Fortunately for me, I do not suffer from that limitation
Iraq doesn't HAVE a functional armed force....
Sure they do, they are 300,000 strong and growing. Where have you been?
300K but not strong...not functional....not trained.... not tested...not effective
it's police force is totally infiltrated by the organizations it is intended to police.
Not true again. Sorry, I can't let you get away with more over-the-top melodrama here. There have been isolated incidents, just like we have isolated incidents here... we don't live in a perfect world, and neither do Iraqis.
according to my friends on the ground, I am speaking the truth.... according to Faux news, you are. I think I'll stick with MY sources
What WILL happen to this vibrant multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom when Sadr's party pulls out of the government after today's meeting between Maliki and Bush?
Well, I don't know, and I suppose time will tell. IMO, the sooner Sadr is pushing up daisies, the better. Your tone here, sounds like you are actually rooting for the democracy to collapse. Do you think that a collapsing democracy in Iraq is going to be the best thing for the US or Iraq? If that's the case, please explain it to me, because I don't get how that helps.
Of course I hope the democracy in Iraq will succeed. I think that a multicultural Jeffersonian democracy blossoming in the fertile triangle would be the best thing for the US and for Iraq. I really do hope it succeeds. Similarly, I really hope I win Powerball this week so that I can live the life of a pampered millionaire. Both of those hopes are real and fervent. Both are about as likely to come true
You do, if you are going up against a superpower like the US. There is a valid reason for us spending trillions of dollars on that technology, and it wasn't so a bunch of 5th century weekend warriors could defeat us.
Interesting..... one wonders how the Vietcong were able to carry on like they did for all those years and kill 55 thousand of us when we were so well equipped with all that high tech stuff and they were so ill equipped?
THe Iraqi army might be 300K, but they ain't trained for shit.
And you know this because you are there with them, witnessing first-hand, the training of Iraqi forces? No, you are talking out of your ass again.
the sources of my information are unknown to you. As a matter of fact, I am in weekly email contact with several active duty personnel in Iraq. They HAVE witnessed these things first hand. I know them. I trust them. I believe them. I do NOT believe you.
They are corrupt and infiltrated with sectarian militia members.
Not really, there have been some isolated cases, just like the LAPD has some morons on their force, and our own military produced Timothy McVeigh. Again, here you are with the over-the-top melodrama, acting like a 13-year-old girl.
not according to my sources
Sadr's force is well trained, and ready and kicks ass against sunnis and Iraqi units with regularity.
And you know this, because you are there with them, watching them train? Perhaps you can give me a link to the stories on which battles they have won, and what cities they currently hold in Iraq. All I can find is stories about car bombs and IED's, not exactly what most armies consider "kicking ass" from a warfare standpoint.
that is what happens when you must rely on the media for all your knowledge. Fortunately for me, I do not suffer from that limitation
Iraq doesn't HAVE a functional armed force....
Sure they do, they are 300,000 strong and growing. Where have you been?
300K but not strong...not functional....not trained.... not tested...not effective
it's police force is totally infiltrated by the organizations it is intended to police.
Not true again. Sorry, I can't let you get away with more over-the-top melodrama here. There have been isolated incidents, just like we have isolated incidents here... we don't live in a perfect world, and neither do Iraqis.
according to my friends on the ground, I am speaking the truth.... according to Faux news, you are. I think I'll stick with MY sources
What WILL happen to this vibrant multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom when Sadr's party pulls out of the government after today's meeting between Maliki and Bush?
Well, I don't know, and I suppose time will tell. IMO, the sooner Sadr is pushing up daisies, the better. Your tone here, sounds like you are actually rooting for the democracy to collapse. Do you think that a collapsing democracy in Iraq is going to be the best thing for the US or Iraq? If that's the case, please explain it to me, because I don't get how that helps.
Of course I hope the democracy in Iraq will succeed. I think that a multicultural Jeffersonian democracy blossoming in the fertile triangle would be the best thing for the US and for Iraq. I really do hope it succeeds. Similarly, I really hope I win Powerball this week so that I can live the life of a pampered millionaire. Both of those hopes are real and fervent. Both are about as likely to come true