StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But the taxes are going to social programs and the middle-class isn't paying nearly as much in taxes as the rich. So really, you'd be saving money.
Liberals hate seeing things like this
- Thread starter Legion
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But the taxes are going to social programs and the middle-class isn't paying nearly as much in taxes as the rich. So really, you'd be saving money.
If I was middle class I might be breaking even, depending on the severity of the socialism. It really screws the poor because employers hire as few people as possible. Folks in the upper percentile will simply move to avoid punitive taxation, as I did over two decades ago when I "escaped" New York. I pay 1/5 of the property tax for my main home that my mother-in-law pays, and mine's nearly twice the size in a nicer neighborhood. And we have great schools and amenities.
So regarding socialism = higher quality of life, the opposite has proven true for me.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
So how come this hasn't happened in European countries?
And you know your own experience is just anecdotal evidence.
I'm sure that it has. Unemployment in Europe is much higher than the US.
There's nothing anecdotal about my experience, since it has been the experience of millions of other who have migrated from high tax states. NY has lost electoral power while my adopted state of NC has gained. Even the governor of NY commented on that as a big problem.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
It's about the same. A few countries are far ahead of America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate
Statistics can be manipulated. There are riots in France every year due to high unemployment.
NY has lost electoral power while my adopted state of NC has gained. Even the governor of NY commented on that as a big problem. Most Americans don't want socialism.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
So statistics don't matter. What are we going by then? Feels over reals?
And the countries with lower unemployment than America? How is that explained?
Depends what you mean by Socialism. Most Americans do want policies that Fox News has called "Socialist," such as affordable health care.
It's explained on how the numbers are gathered and reported. How do you explain the annual summer riots in France where they routinely burn hundreds of cars, and dozens if not more people die since they lack air conditioning?
The definition of socialism is well defined, and most people don't want it based on that definition. With regards to "affordable health care", most Americans did fine until GovCo started to get involved with it, and that was well before the latest debacle with Obamacare.
My wife works in the heath care industry and she routinely sees morbidly obese, elderly folks who never walked a mile in their lives getting knee and hip replacements. Patients with severe dementia getting fitted for an electric wheelchair. Each time I always ask the same question: would the patient or their families be requesting these procedures or devices if they were footing the bill themselves? The answer is routinely "no".
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
Studies aren't perfect, but when every study is saying the same thing, then it's more than likely true.
First of all, it's not annual. Secondly, riots aren't a good way to measure living standards. Some cultures are more accepting of protests, which means there will be more protesting and rioting, even when things are better than in other countries. There aren't any riots in North Korea, because duh. Finally, France is just one country. How do you explain the Nordic and German-speaking countries having more success than America?
If you mean collective ownership, sure, I don't want that either. That's not what I'm talking about.
But most Americans do want Fox News Socialism.
When exactly was that? What year did the government get involved with health care and fuck everything up?
The ACA was far from perfect, but it's largely seen as a net positive now, because more Americans have health insurance. Even the Republicans don't want Trump to repeal the ACA because it would set us back.
Isn't that an argument for universal health care?
No. When it's "free" then it is over-utilized and abused.
LBJ screwed things up in the 1960's with Medicare and Medicaid.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But it's not being abused if these people actually do need these services.
Well the life expectancy and health standards have gone up since the fifties. So wouldn't this mean LBJ succeeded?
It is being abused for the reasons noted.
You seem to be arguing that LBJ caused life expectancy to rise, and that completely ignores advances in health technology, automobile safety, and hundreds of other factors.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
People don't get surgeries they need because they can't afford them. They just suffer and die earlier than they should. So the fact that the people you referred to wouldn't get those things if government wasn't paying for it just means that we now have a system that helps some people get what they need. I'd say it's a good start.
I know there are other factors, but advances in health technology don't mean all that much if people don't have realistic access to health services.
The examples I gave were procedures/ devices that were not needed. The families "wants what's best for Momma" only when someone else is paying for it.
Advances in med tech would be to make it more affordable if people where paying for it themselves. Example: laser eye surgery. Get GovCo involved and the inentive for profit goes away, waste multiplies.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But it did improve their health, right? Like I said, there are people who just go without the surgeries they need. They don't die on the spot, they just live with the health problems they have.
I don't get this argument either. How does the incentive for profit go away if the doctors are still getting paid?
No it didn't, for the obvious reasons.
The incentive is to beat out your competition, which reduces costs.
StoneByStone
It's OK to Be White
But that still happens in countries with affordable health care. Even with universal health care, people would simply go to the better doctors, and those doctors would get paid by the government.
Most of the innovation comes from the US, or at least it used to.