New, New Low

[Cypress]

And this answers what and how?

this is what you wrote:

"When in actuality you are not slightly open to discussion"

I just pointed out that I'm open to discussion, and changing my mind, on the basis of facts. I'm willing to discuss facts. I'm not willing to entertain the delusions of slaves, who keep inventing new justifications for why we need to spend a trillion $$ in Iraq.

 

[Annie]

this is what you wrote:

"When in actuality you are not slightly open to discussion"

I just pointed out that I'm open to discussion, and changing my mind, on the basis of facts. I'm willing to discuss facts. I'm not willing to entertain the delusions of slaves, who keep inventing new justifications for why we need to spend a trillion $$ in Iraq.

Actually you threw out a case of Clinton, but not holding him responsible, from what I've seen.

FTR I hardly consider myself a slave to a party or any published ideology.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

One thing I've decided is that there is a certain percentage of people in the country that can't be persuaded. Ever. Even with facts that refute their ideology staring them straight in the face. They'll keep clutching their kool aid.

I would say that the far-right - about 20% of the country, is beyond persuasion. As such, I agree with previous posters: I don't give a crap about what they think.

One thing being on message boards, and listening to right wing talk radio has taught me: these people are ideological robots and slaves. No matter how many reasons they give for their war in iraq (that end up evaporating), they are totally incapable of admitting they fucked up. They'll keep inventing new justifications, as old justifications collapse: "WMD! No, we're there for freedom and democracy! No, we're their for mass graves and torture chambers! No, we're there because Saddam was tied to Al Qaeda! No, we're there to establish bases and "surround" Iran! Wait, even if Bush fucked up, Al Qaeda is there NOW - what do you want to do? Surrender to al qaeda???". They will never, ever admit their war was wrong. And you know what? They'll spend ANY amount of money, kill any amount of american solidiers to stay in Iraq. There is no upper limit to blood and treasure they will identify, and say or conclude that their war wasn't worth it. Even if it costs 5 trillion dollars in the end.

I've had enough of these lemmings. They're slaves and prisoners of the talk radio ideology they grew up under. Fuck them.

I'd be lying if I said that the left and the right were equally balanced in the amount of stupid people they each posess. But the stupid people of the left really remind me of the right, anyway. There are, however, many very intelligent conservatives, like George Will. Goldwater was also very intelligent (just about the only constituency he got a majority from was the college educated). Everyone just about love George Will. He's not an ideologue at all. However, Goldwater became much more liberal as time progressed. I really challenge anyone to say that the Goldwater of the 90's was exactly like the one of the 60's.

I really think it's a crime that the American right has slowly deteriated from being the intellectual side of the spectrum like it was in the past. I think it really began with Reagan - though he wasn't particualarly stupid himself, he tried to court the southern vote, for no particular reason other than popularity, and they took over the damn party and ideology.

The beautiful thing about democracy, however, is that stupid people generally pick up all kinds of wild assertions and vote in crazily opposite directions. You usually see this in the north, with their being a liberal sitting there telling you a bunch of really stupid stuff and parroting slogans, along with a right winger who does the same thing next door. The only problem is whenever those people are geographically concentrated, like in the south, our system gives them tons of power, and they generally bend very easily to the peer pressure around them and vote all the same. One of the really amazing things about the south is its ideological uniformity. Although it's being steadily chipped away at, there are still many amazing landslides in the south.

The people may be stupid, but you shouldn't just completely give up on them. I spent 30 minutes yesterday trying to convince two of my friends that the FCC didn't regulate cable television (apparently, they were thrown off by the fact that the South Park we were watching featured bleeps. Apparently they don't know that the FCC is unable to bleep anything out, even over the airwaves). I also spent time with them trying to say that it's not necessarily retarded for there to be organizations of atheists. You can imagine how frustrating this was. But in the end, I usually treat their stupidity kind of genially, and I'll always debate them if they want to to the end. I know that their opinions are wrong, but it's better to at least put doubt in their mind than to make them hate you and your entire philosophy by throwing out a few stupid insults. Who knows - one day, instead of being stupid authoritarians, they may very well be stupid liberals.

 

[Damocles]

And people actually CARE what the hell he does/thinks? Jesus titty fucking christ

It seems like people in this thread do for some reason. I couldn't care less.

 

[blackascoal]

Latin America is becoming less and less liberal and more and more authoritarian every day. Bush is driving the world towards authoritarianism with his cowboy politics.

The thing about all of Hugo's policies is that their not logical. He realizes people are poor, but he doesn't take measures to produce more to take care of them, he instead forces producers to die in the market paying for them, and forces them into poverty. It's heavily counter-productive. There's a cost-benefit analysis that has to be made for everything the government does - you can't simply do a benefit analysis for everything your government does and a cost analyis for everything you and other individuals do for out world and the human race.

The VENEZUALAN PEOPLE are firmly behind Chavez and his policies.

You should try applying that cost-benefit analysis to American policies and see if our investments in war, the military/industrial complex, and the prison/industrial complex are paying off for anybody but the plutocrats.

Americans are quick to judge every nation and leader that isn't American but run from the mirror ourselves .. unless it's Snow White's mirror that will only show us what we want to see.

Chavez has instituted more than a few policies to address poverty in his nation. Has America? Do we even talk about poverty in this country that continues to rise?

 

[blackascoal]

You should care. You should really care about everything. Apathy is killing the nation. You shouldn't push people around, and whenever they disagree insult them and say "I don't give a fuck!" and push through policies that destroy them. You should try to get them to understand you. Sure, you may think your right. Everyone else does to, and they have just as much conviction. There's no such thing as "wrong" and "evil", there are only misunderstandings.

The problem is that we aren't children and this is not OZ.

You would have to be extremely naive to believe that ideology is only seperated by "misunderstandings", or that you can or even should attempt to convince everyone of what you believe.

It is intelligent, logical, and mature to reach a point in your own approach to solutions, crisis, and life where you can say, "I don't give a fuck what you think." If you lack that maturity, you lack what is required to solve problems. You lack what is required to even make your own life better.

While you may spend/waste your time trying to convince those who may call you a conspiracy theorists about the fraud of electronic voting, those people mature enough to say "fuck you" to those opposed to facts will get the problem solved.

While you may spend/waste time trying to convince people with no authority to do anything about our brave men and women dying in a useless war, those mature enough to say "fuck you" will do the work to bring our troops home.

No, I don't give a fuck what the right-wing refuses to see. Our nation is in crisis, brave men and women in uniform are dying for a lost and hopeless cause .. but if you choose to waste your time and energy trying to convince others of a deception Ray Charles could see today .. then that's your choice.

However, leadership does not come by consensus. If you're waiting on everybody to join in and all hold hands down the road to solutions that's your choice. But with all due respect, not only do I have no empathy for the right-wing, but I also have little for those sitting on fences hoping the wind will blow. You name the just cause and you'll find that it was not led by people who didn't have the ability, the maturity to say if you don't see this, fuck you.

There is in fucking deed such things as wrong and evil .. look no further than the mass-murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis including women, children, and babies and tell me how in the hell you percieve that as a "misunderstanding."

Stand in front of the American mirror and look into our history and tell me you don't see wrong and evil.

This ain't Oz.

 

[Lao Tse]

Latin America is becoming less and less liberal and more and more authoritarian every day. Bush is driving the world towards authoritarianism with his cowboy politics.

The thing about all of Hugo's policies is that their not logical. He realizes people are poor, but he doesn't take measures to produce more to take care of them, he instead forces producers to die in the market paying for them, and forces them into poverty. It's heavily counter-productive. There's a cost-benefit analysis that has to be made for everything the government does - you can't simply do a benefit analysis for everything your government does and a cost analyis for everything you and other individuals do for out world and the human race.

Counterlogical like outsourcing jobs being good for americans?

 

[Damocles]

The VENEZUALAN PEOPLE are firmly behind Chavez and his policies.

You should try applying that cost-benefit analysis to American policies and see if our investments in war, the military/industrial complex, and the prison/industrial complex are paying off for anybody but the plutocrats.

Americans are quick to judge every nation and leader that isn't American but run from the mirror ourselves .. unless it's Snow White's mirror that will only show us what we want to see.

Chavez has instituted more than a few policies to address poverty in his nation. Has America? Do we even talk about poverty in this country that continues to rise?

And many of the Germans were behind Hitler and his policies. This doesn't change that he was authoritarian, and it appears Hugo is more than just leaning in that direction.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The problem is that we aren't children and this is not OZ.

You would have to be extremely naive to believe that ideology is only seperated by "misunderstandings", or that you can or even should attempt to convince everyone of what you believe.

It is intelligent, logical, and mature to reach a point in your own approach to solutions, crisis, and life where you can say, "I don't give a fuck what you think." If you lack that maturity, you lack what is required to solve problems. You lack what is required to even make your own life better.

While you may spend/waste your time trying to convince those who may call you a conspiracy theorists about the fraud of electronic voting, those people mature enough to say "fuck you" to those opposed to facts will get the problem solved.

While you may spend/waste time trying to convince people with no authority to do anything about our brave men and women dying in a useless war, those mature enough to say "fuck you" will do the work to bring our troops home.

No, I don't give a fuck what the right-wing refuses to see. Our nation is in crisis, brave men and women in uniform are dying for a lost and hopeless cause .. but if you choose to waste your time and energy trying to convince others of a deception Ray Charles could see today .. then that's your choice.

However, leadership does not come by consensus. If you're waiting on everybody to join in and all hold hands down the road to solutions that's your choice. But with all due respect, not only do I have no empathy for the right-wing, but I also have little for those sitting on fences hoping the wind will blow. You name the just cause and you'll find that it was not led by people who didn't have the ability, the maturity to say if you don't see this, fuck you.

There is in fucking deed such things as wrong and evil .. look no further than the mass-murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis including women, children, and babies and tell me how in the hell you percieve that as a "misunderstanding."

Stand in front of the American mirror and look into our history and tell me you don't see wrong and evil.

This ain't Oz.

Fuck you. I don't care.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The VENEZUALAN PEOPLE are firmly behind Chavez and his policies.

You should try applying that cost-benefit analysis to American policies and see if our investments in war, the military/industrial complex, and the prison/industrial complex are paying off for anybody but the plutocrats.

Americans are quick to judge every nation and leader that isn't American but run from the mirror ourselves .. unless it's Snow White's mirror that will only show us what we want to see.

Chavez has instituted more than a few policies to address poverty in his nation. Has America? Do we even talk about poverty in this country that continues to rise?

I could care less about who the VENEZULAN PEOPLE are behind. A majority being behind anything is no more proof of it being right than your dumbass being behind it. The majority was behind Hitler. The majority of the USSR was behind Communism. This was irrelevant. Both philosophies destroyed their nation. The people (by "people", of course, I assume you mean the more proper terminology "majority") are not always right; in fact, they never are completely right. The only good thing about democracy is the fact that people disagree with each other, and only in a few instances can majorities be formed to carry out people's various oppressions.

The very instability, the disunity of democracy, is it's key feature; it forces debate between human beings, it forces them to listen to each other, without walking out and saying "FUCK YOU" and instituting haphazard, far reaching philosiphies without any consensus. This is destroyed whenever the people are in groupthink and refuse to think for themselves; like in Hitler's day. Chavez may be more moderate than Hitler but he's of the same damagoguist populist breed that ABUSES the trust of the people.

Poverty in America isn't rising by any signifigant degree, Black. Poverty is at one of it's lowest points in human history.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Blackascoal is almost like Colbert in his stream of emotionalism and logical fallacies. Only difference is Colbert does it as a joke.

 

[Lao Tse]

The mark of a true idiotic liberal is an ability to recognize that totalitarianism is totalitarianism, regardless of the abstract lies they point to as their motivation and goal.

 

[doniston]

Fuck you. I don't care.

Is that the only way you can respond???? Disgusting, to say the least.

 

[Lao Tse]

I could care less about who the VENEZULAN PEOPLE are behind. A majority being behind anything is no more proof of it being right than your dumbass being behind it. The majority was behind Hitler. The majority of the USSR was behind Communism. This was irrelevant. Both philosophies destroyed their nation. The people (by "people", of course, I assume you mean the more proper terminology "majority") are not always right; in fact, they never are completely right. The only good thing about democracy is the fact that people disagree with each other, and only in a few instances can majorities be formed to carry out people's various oppressions.

The very instability, the disunity of democracy, is it's key feature; it forces debate between human beings, it forces them to listen to each other, without walking out and saying "FUCK YOU" and instituting haphazard, far reaching philosiphies without any consensus. This is destroyed whenever the people are in groupthink and refuse to think for themselves; like in Hitler's day. Chavez may be more moderate than Hitler but he's of the same damagoguist populist breed that ABUSES the trust of the people.

Poverty in America isn't rising by any signifigant degree, Black. Poverty is at one of it's lowest points in human history.

Groupthink also occurs when people are intimidated for putting any value on morality, or the well being of the nation, and instead prefer abstract measurements such as gdp as an indicator of ultimate goodness.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Is that the only way you can respond???? Disgusting, to say the least.

Did you read Black's post, Don? He was telling me that, instead of thinking things through rationally, I should just tell anyone I disagreed with "Fuck you, I don't care". So I told him what he wanted to hear. I guess he won the day, in that respect.

 

[Cancel7]

Did you read Black's post, Don? He was telling me that, instead of thinking things through rationally, I should just tell anyone I disagreed with "Fuck you, I don't care". So I told him what he wanted to hear. I guess he won the day, in that respect.

That's not what he was telling you, learn to read Water.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Groupthink also occurs when people are intimidated for putting any value on morality, or the well being of the nation, and instead prefer abstract measurements such as gdp as an indicator of ultimate goodness.

The GDP per capita is good for some thing's and not for others. I've never heard anyone say it's a measure of "ultimate goodness", but whatever. I don't see how your point is related to the subject at all.

 

[Cancel7]

One thing I've decided is that there is a certain percentage of people in the country that can't be persuaded. Ever. Even with facts that refute their ideology staring them straight in the face. They'll keep clutching their kool aid.

I would say that the far-right - about 20% of the country, is beyond persuasion. As such, I agree with previous posters: I don't give a crap about what they think.

One thing being on message boards, and listening to right wing talk radio has taught me: these people are ideological robots and slaves. No matter how many reasons they give for their war in iraq (that end up evaporating), they are totally incapable of admitting they fucked up. They'll keep inventing new justifications, as old justifications collapse: "WMD! No, we're there for freedom and democracy! No, we're their for mass graves and torture chambers! No, we're there because Saddam was tied to Al Qaeda! No, we're there to establish bases and "surround" Iran! Wait, even if Bush fucked up, Al Qaeda is there NOW - what do you want to do? Surrender to al qaeda???". They will never, ever admit their war was wrong. And you know what? They'll spend ANY amount of money, kill any amount of american solidiers to stay in Iraq. There is no upper limit to blood and treasure they will identify, and say or conclude that their war wasn't worth it. Even if it costs 5 trillion dollars in the end.

I've had enough of these lemmings. They're slaves and prisoners of the talk radio ideology they grew up under. Fuck them.

QFT

Take note: Nowhere does Cypress say, "tell anyone who doesn't agree with you, fuck you"

RIF

 

[Cancel7]

Actually you threw out a case of Clinton, but not holding him responsible, from what I've seen.

FTR I hardly consider myself a slave to a party or any published ideology.

Do you know of anyone who does consider themselves a slave to a party or ideology?

 

[Cancel7]

The problem is that we aren't children and this is not OZ.

You would have to be extremely naive to believe that ideology is only seperated by "misunderstandings", or that you can or even should attempt to convince everyone of what you believe.

It is intelligent, logical, and mature to reach a point in your own approach to solutions, crisis, and life where you can say, "I don't give a fuck what you think." If you lack that maturity, you lack what is required to solve problems. You lack what is required to even make your own life better.

While you may spend/waste your time trying to convince those who may call you a conspiracy theorists about the fraud of electronic voting, those people mature enough to say "fuck you" to those opposed to facts will get the problem solved.

While you may spend/waste time trying to convince people with no authority to do anything about our brave men and women dying in a useless war, those mature enough to say "fuck you" will do the work to bring our troops home.

No, I don't give a fuck what the right-wing refuses to see. Our nation is in crisis, brave men and women in uniform are dying for a lost and hopeless cause .. but if you choose to waste your time and energy trying to convince others of a deception Ray Charles could see today .. then that's your choice.

However, leadership does not come by consensus. If you're waiting on everybody to join in and all hold hands down the road to solutions that's your choice. But with all due respect, not only do I have no empathy for the right-wing, but I also have little for those sitting on fences hoping the wind will blow. You name the just cause and you'll find that it was not led by people who didn't have the ability, the maturity to say if you don't see this, fuck you.

There is in fucking deed such things as wrong and evil .. look no further than the mass-murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis including women, children, and babies and tell me how in the hell you percieve that as a "misunderstanding."

Stand in front of the American mirror and look into our history and tell me you don't see wrong and evil.

This ain't Oz.

QFT

Note that nowhere does bac tell anyone "tell anyone who disagrees with you fuck you"

RIF