New, New Low

[FUCK THE POLICE]

"The problem is that we aren't children and this is not OZ."
Nice slogan, Black. It's not, however, a rational approach to philosophy.

"You would have to be extremely naive to believe that ideology is only seperated by "misunderstandings","

Yes... it is. Please don't tell me that what you believe is the correct way to do things, either. The human brain is not capable of predicting all there is and what is best. Society is too complicated. Sometimes, it's best just to say "I don't know", instead of blindly push forward with policy after policy. I know here that easily 99% of what you and I believe probably isn't the "best" for society. I just do the best I can.

"or that you can or even should attempt to convince everyone of what you believe."

Good thing I never said that, eh? Else we would have a problem. But sometimes, Black, instead of looking at a disagreement between two persons as a falt in the other, maybe you should look at it in a fault in the way you're telling them, or a fault in your own fucking philosophy, of which there are obviously many.

"It is intelligent, logical, and mature to reach a point in your own approach to solutions, crisis, and life where you can say, "I don't give a fuck what you think.""

Why are you talking to them if you don't give a fuck what they think? If you didn't care, you wouldn't be talking to them. You're just using it as an irrational defensive tool.

"If you lack that maturity, you lack what is required to solve problems. You lack what is required to even make your own life better."

I never realized that one of the requirments of becoming mature was being an asshole to everyone and insulting them if they disagree with you. Why, that's what children do, actually.

"While you may spend/waste your time trying to convince those who may call you a conspiracy theorists about the fraud of electronic voting, those people mature enough to say "fuck you" to those opposed to facts will get the problem solved."

Like Hitler? No, I never trust those people. If Hitler rose to power in the US, you would've been right behind him. Problems are never solved by those just looking to do shit for the sake of it. It's only the appearance of progress.

"While you may spend/waste time trying to convince people with no authority to do anything about our brave men and women dying in a useless war, those mature enough to say "fuck you" will do the work to bring our troops home."

How are they supposed to do that?


"No, I don't give a fuck what the right-wing refuses to see."

So you're right, Black? Pretty damn self-congratulatory.

"Our nation is in crisis"

No it isn't. Stupid fearmongering.

"brave men and women in uniform are dying for a lost and hopeless cause .. but if you choose to waste your time and energy trying to convince others of a deception Ray Charles could see today .. then that's your choice."

If you think you're wasting time in debating people then just leave the damn site.

"However, leadership does not come by consensus."

I had no idea that "leadership" equated to "fascism". Consensus is far more important than leadership.

"If you're waiting on everybody to join in and all hold hands down the road to solutions that's your choice."

The times when people have done that have been for more successful than Hitler, Pinochet, and Lenin.

" But with all due respect, not only do I have no empathy for the right-wing, but I also have little for those sitting on fences hoping the wind will blow."

AND THAT'S WHY YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THEM, BLACK!

" You name the just cause and you'll find that it was not led by people who didn't have the ability, the maturity to say if you don't see this, fuck you."


It's not a sign of maturity, it's a sign of childness. It's a little child beating his hands on the ground, beating his hands on the ground, and whining to the government "MOMMY! MOMMY! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT ANYMORE!"

"There is in fucking deed such things as wrong and evil"

What is it? You're wrong. Hitler was wrong. You both believe you're doing right. There is such moral ambiguity in our existance that you are not even capable of understanding.

"look no further than the mass-murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis including women, children, and babies and tell me how in the hell you percieve that as a "misunderstanding." "


Bush believed he could do the best for the nation. He said "fuck you" to all that disagreed and sent the troops off to die. He demonstrated leadership and wasn't looking for any consensus.

"Stand in front of the American mirror and look into our history and tell me you don't see wrong and evil."

You know, I see sometimes that things have happened that really piss me off. They were all perepetuated by those who just said "fuck you" and refused to reach consensus. You see, Black, sometimes that may work. But it very well and often works for people who aren't you, Black, people who want to abuse it.

"This ain't Oz."

A repetition of the slogan.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Do you know of anyone who does consider themselves a slave to a party or ideology?

lol

I consider myself a slave to ideology.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Hmmmff...

I already feel like disagreeing with myself. Well, F. Scott Fitzgerald once said that "The mark of a genius is that ability to hold two completely contradictory ideas in your head at the same time and not explode"

I am now using this to compliment myself .

 

[OrnotBitwise]

You should care. You should really care about everything. Apathy is killing the nation. You shouldn't push people around, and whenever they disagree insult them and say "I don't give a fuck!" and push through policies that destroy them. You should try to get them to understand you. Sure, you may think your right. Everyone else does to, and they have just as much conviction. There's no such thing as "wrong" and "evil", there are only misunderstandings.

No, I have to disagree with you. There are RARELY times when compromise isn't the wisest course, but they do crop up now and then.

Sometimes, you do have to take a stand. Sometimes, the other side really is flatly wrong. This is, I think, one of them: the corporatists here in the U.S. are damned nearly completely out of control. The pendulum has swung so far away from balance that the axle is in danger of breaking.

"I don't give a fuck!" isn't an expression of apathy, in this case. Far from it. It's an expression of partisanship and group loyalty.

 

[Litmus]

The GDP per capita is good for some thing's and not for others. I've never heard anyone say it's a measure of "ultimate goodness", but whatever. I don't see how your point is related to the subject at all.

No. The gdp is mostly irrelevant to someone who's industry has been outsourced. The gdp is only unconditionally good for the investor class.

You generally don't see how anything is relevant to anything, cuz you're a fucktard.

But I have to say you're brilliant for an eighteen year old. Don't let them convince you that national loyalty is wrong, because after that they will try to tell you that family loyalty is wrong, until eventually any loyalty to any other principle than unconditonal followership will be considered a thought crime. You need to draw a line in the sand.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No, I have to disagree with you. There are RARELY times when compromise isn't the wisest course, but they do crop up now and then.

Sometimes, you do have to take a stand. Sometimes, the other side really is flatly wrong. This is, I think, one of them: the corporatists here in the U.S. are damned nearly completely out of control. The pendulum has swung so far away from balance that the axle is in danger of breaking.

"I don't give a fuck!" isn't an expression of apathy, in this case. Far from it. It's an expression of partisanship and group loyalty.

Yes... Ornot. I was just going off on an ideological tree there. No one's speech's, however, have the ability to piss me off more than Black's. Don't know why.

Sometimes there is a time for not listening to them... but I wouldn't apathize with them. You must oppose them, but I really feel pity for them more than anyone else.

I really must remind you, however, that such a process can be used for destructive as well as constructive things, and is most often used for destructive things, and must be eyed warily... you must never let yourself go too far down into group partisanship.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

No. The gdp is mostly irrelevant to someone who's industry has been outsourced. The gdp is only unconditionally good for the investor class.

You generally don't see how anything is relevant to anything, cuz you're a fucktard.

But I have to say you're brilliant for an eighteen year old. Don't let them convince you that national loyalty is wrong, because after that they will try to tell you that family loyalty is wrong, until eventually any loyalty to any other principle than unconditonal followership will be considered a thought crime. You need to draw a line in the sand.

For the normal person, the median wage would be a better measurement. But only rarely does it diverge signifigantly from the GDP per capita. The bigger the difference between median and average wage, the worse. If the median wage is lower than the GDP, then there's a super-rich "upper class". This is the situation in most of America, but the difference isn't very dramatic. If it's higher, then there's a signifigant underclass. That is the situation in Mississippi.

Outsourcing barely counts as a source of American job loss. It's like 1% of all jobs "lost", and all jobs "lost" are usually replaced by more or less jobs anyway.

 

[Litmus]

For the normal person, the median wage would be a better measurement. But only rarely does it diverge signifigantly from the GDP per capita. The bigger the difference between median and average wage, the worse. If the median wage is lower than the GDP, then there's a super-rich "upper class". This is the situation in most of America, but the difference isn't very dramatic. If it's higher, then there's a signifigant underclass. That is the situation in Mississippi.

Outsourcing barely counts as a source of American job loss. It's like 1% of all jobs "lost", and all jobs "lost" are usually replaced by more or less jobs anyway.

You're numbers don't reflect reality. OUTSOURCING is technically only when a us company hires an overseas employee. OUTSOURCING stats don't reflect complete loss of an industry or product to slave based competition overseas.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Actually, China was one of the biggest losers of manufacturing jobs last year...

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

You're numbers don't reflect reality. OUTSOURCING is technically only when a us company hires an overseas employee. OUTSOURCING stats don't reflect complete loss of an industry or product to slave based competition overseas.

So any foreign company that chooses to trade with US individuals is involved with slave labour?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Yes... Ornot. I was just going off on an ideological tree there. No one's speech's, however, have the ability to piss me off more than Black's. Don't know why.

Sometimes there is a time for not listening to them... but I wouldn't apathize with them. You must oppose them, but I really feel pity for them more than anyone else.

I really must remind you, however, that such a process can be used for destructive as well as constructive things, and is most often used for destructive things, and must be eyed warily... you must never let yourself go too far down into group partisanship.

Oh, no question. There's nothing more dangerous than convincing a group of people to take a stand for Absolute Truth. It is, I submit, sometimes necessary but it's never unequivocally a good idea.

Funny you should mention that about blackascoal. I have the exact opposite reaction to his style. The difference is a function of our ages, I'm sure: he speaks like what I grew up with. That's my natural political language there; anything else I have to work at.

 

[Litmus]

Oh, no question. There's nothing more dangerous than convincing a group of people to take a stand for Absolute Truth. It is, I submit, sometimes necessary but it's never unequivocally a good idea.

Funny you should mention that about blackascoal. I have the exact opposite reaction to his style. The difference is a function of our ages, I'm sure: he speaks like what I grew up with. That's my natural political language there; anything else I have to work at.

But you take a stand on not taking stands. Your nihlistic core drives you to this idiocy. In the end, what you consider enlightenment is actually the cessation of critical thought and self reliance.

 

[Litmus]

So any foreign company that chooses to trade with US individuals is involved with slave labour?

Don't act retarded.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

But you take a stand on not taking stands. Your nihlistic core drives you to this idiocy. In the end, what you consider enlightenment is actually the cessation of critical thought and self reliance.

Wrong, Grasshopper. I do indeed take stands. In fact, I probably take too many: I've been accused of being a bit shrill by some of the people whom I admire most. Unlike you, however, I prefer to take stands on the basis of reason rather than ideology and emotion.

Your fanatical religious belief in the sovereign individual has blinded you to all data which may contradict your ideology. Indeed, you lash out violently at the slightest suggestion individual humans are not magically proof against outside influence. You seem to need to believe we are each "created" (sic) whole and perfect in our isolation, sublimely unaffected by the world in which we develop.

What I consider enlightenment is the integrity to follow critical thought even into uncomfortable regions. No one likes to think that he or she is, well, average. No one is comfortable with the idea we are indeed products of our culture; that what we think and believe is, in fact, largely determined by our interactions with other people, especially when we're children. What I consider critical thought is the ability to set aside one's dear-but-let's-face-it animalistic feelings long enough to wonder just why one might feel a certain way and whether that emotional response is entirely appropriate.

In short, I value the wisdom of the adult more than the alleged innocence of the child.

 

[Litmus]

Ok. Let's go back.

First there's this:

There's nothing more dangerous than convincing a group of people to take a stand for Absolute Truth.

Then there's this:

Wrong, Grasshopper. I do indeed take stands. In fact, I probably take too many: I've been accused of being a bit shrill by some of the people whom I admire most. Unlike you, however, I prefer to take stands on the basis of reason rather than ideology and emotion.

Are the stands you take admittedly dangerous, or are they not based on Absolute Truth. ANd if they're not based on Absolute Truth, what are they based on ?

 

[blackascoal]

"The problem is that we aren't children and this is not OZ."
Nice slogan, Black. It's not, however, a rational approach to philosophy.

"You would have to be extremely naive to believe that ideology is only seperated by "misunderstandings","

Yes... it is. Please don't tell me that what you believe is the correct way to do things, either. The human brain is not capable of predicting all there is and what is best. Society is too complicated. Sometimes, it's best just to say "I don't know", instead of blindly push forward with policy after policy. I know here that easily 99% of what you and I believe probably isn't the "best" for society. I just do the best I can.

"or that you can or even should attempt to convince everyone of what you believe."

Good thing I never said that, eh? Else we would have a problem. But sometimes, Black, instead of looking at a disagreement between two persons as a falt in the other, maybe you should look at it in a fault in the way you're telling them, or a fault in your own fucking philosophy, of which there are obviously many.

"It is intelligent, logical, and mature to reach a point in your own approach to solutions, crisis, and life where you can say, "I don't give a fuck what you think.""

Why are you talking to them if you don't give a fuck what they think? If you didn't care, you wouldn't be talking to them. You're just using it as an irrational defensive tool.

"If you lack that maturity, you lack what is required to solve problems. You lack what is required to even make your own life better."

I never realized that one of the requirments of becoming mature was being an asshole to everyone and insulting them if they disagree with you. Why, that's what children do, actually.

"While you may spend/waste your time trying to convince those who may call you a conspiracy theorists about the fraud of electronic voting, those people mature enough to say "fuck you" to those opposed to facts will get the problem solved."

Like Hitler? No, I never trust those people. If Hitler rose to power in the US, you would've been right behind him. Problems are never solved by those just looking to do shit for the sake of it. It's only the appearance of progress.

"While you may spend/waste time trying to convince people with no authority to do anything about our brave men and women dying in a useless war, those mature enough to say "fuck you" will do the work to bring our troops home."

How are they supposed to do that?


"No, I don't give a fuck what the right-wing refuses to see."

So you're right, Black? Pretty damn self-congratulatory.

"Our nation is in crisis"

No it isn't. Stupid fearmongering.

"brave men and women in uniform are dying for a lost and hopeless cause .. but if you choose to waste your time and energy trying to convince others of a deception Ray Charles could see today .. then that's your choice."

If you think you're wasting time in debating people then just leave the damn site.

"However, leadership does not come by consensus."

I had no idea that "leadership" equated to "fascism". Consensus is far more important than leadership.

"If you're waiting on everybody to join in and all hold hands down the road to solutions that's your choice."

The times when people have done that have been for more successful than Hitler, Pinochet, and Lenin.

" But with all due respect, not only do I have no empathy for the right-wing, but I also have little for those sitting on fences hoping the wind will blow."

AND THAT'S WHY YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THEM, BLACK!

" You name the just cause and you'll find that it was not led by people who didn't have the ability, the maturity to say if you don't see this, fuck you."


It's not a sign of maturity, it's a sign of childness. It's a little child beating his hands on the ground, beating his hands on the ground, and whining to the government "MOMMY! MOMMY! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT ANYMORE!"

"There is in fucking deed such things as wrong and evil"

What is it? You're wrong. Hitler was wrong. You both believe you're doing right. There is such moral ambiguity in our existance that you are not even capable of understanding.

"look no further than the mass-murdering of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis including women, children, and babies and tell me how in the hell you percieve that as a "misunderstanding." "


Bush believed he could do the best for the nation. He said "fuck you" to all that disagreed and sent the troops off to die. He demonstrated leadership and wasn't looking for any consensus.

"Stand in front of the American mirror and look into our history and tell me you don't see wrong and evil."

You know, I see sometimes that things have happened that really piss me off. They were all perepetuated by those who just said "fuck you" and refused to reach consensus. You see, Black, sometimes that may work. But it very well and often works for people who aren't you, Black, people who want to abuse it.

"This ain't Oz."

A repetition of the slogan.

I'm sorry .. I couldn't get through all that.

I have no problem with you believing your philosophy of life, but little of that makes any sense to me. I wasn't talking about a "rational approach to philosophy, I was speaking of my approach to life and problem solving, not philosophical meanderings.

If you think you're wasting time in debating people then just leave the damn site.

Here's where I say, "fuck you".

Nothing in what I said even slightly intimated that I felt I was wasting my time here discussing my perspectives with other people or debating with whom I don't agree .. both I do every bit as well as you do. Nor has the sum of my comments started or ended in dismissing or denergrating the thoughts of others. Who in the fuck told you that you are any more capable or adept at debate in this forum than I am?

That was an amazingly stupid comment.

It's not a sign of maturity, it's a sign of childness. It's a little child beating his hands on the ground, beating his hands on the ground, and whining to the government "MOMMY! MOMMY! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT ANYMORE!"

Another stupid comment.

Fortunately, womens rights, civil rights, child protection, voting rights, antiwar, and a litany of other just causes didn't wait on you for them to determine that enough is enough. Debate doesn't go on forever. People of conscience decided to do something about the issues in spite of what those against them had to say or staying wrapped up endlessly debating.

If you truly believe that Bush thought he was "doing what's best for the nation" by mass-murdering innocent people .. I believe that questions your intelligence, not your philosophy.

No need to get too deep in our differences on when I should be able to determine that I couldn't care less what those who don't agree have to say.

In fact, I'm feeling that right now about your philosophical meanderings and I couldn't care less whether you agree with me or not.

 

[blackascoal]

Yes... Ornot. I was just going off on an ideological tree there. No one's speech's, however, have the ability to piss me off more than Black's. Don't know why.

I have a good idea why.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Ok. Let's go back.

Are the stands you take admittedly dangerous, or are they not based on Absolute Truth. ANd if they're not based on Absolute Truth, what are they based on ?

What part of "nothing more dangerous" did you fail to grasp, Cricket?

One of the aspects of adulthood that seems to have eluded you is that the adult must, at times, take risks. There are times when there are no options that are both safe and good. This is where we are now, alas. It's never a good thing but it is sometimes necessary.

 

[blackascoal]

What part of "nothing more dangerous" did you fail to grasp, Cricket?

One of the aspects of adulthood that seems to have eluded you is that the adult must, at times, take risks. There are times when there are no options that are both safe and good. This is where we are now, alas. It's never a good thing but it is sometimes necessary.

Well said indeed

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Oh, no question. There's nothing more dangerous than convincing a group of people to take a stand for Absolute Truth. It is, I submit, sometimes necessary but it's never unequivocally a good idea.

Funny you should mention that about blackascoal. I have the exact opposite reaction to his style. The difference is a function of our ages, I'm sure: he speaks like what I grew up with. That's my natural political language there; anything else I have to work at.

Yeah, I think the language was it. I don't know, but Black can make me go off like hell. And, of course, whenever he started talking about immaturity...