Question on guns

I'm not trying to do it. The founders DID it. They were willing to make the distinction I made and one with which you understand and see the point. 5th amendment due process was recently used related to a bakery in Oregon that refused to bake a cake for a fag wedding. A COURT ruled that the owners' claim of religious freedom granted under the 1st amendment didn't come up to the level of a state law which said the owners couldn't refuse. In essence, that court, through due process limited their 1st amendment rights. In fact, any time such an issue goes through court, due process of the 5th amendment is used.

The fifth amendment does not allow constitutional rights to be limited. If so, Congress could pass a law restricting free press, speech, and religion and claim they did it using due process. But we both know Congress cannot limit those freedoms even if the person is a convicted felon. There is certainly nothing in the 2nd or 5th making an exception. Nor can Congress say a felon cannot be president or modify other constitutional provisions unless specifically stated.

I listened to the oral arguments before the Supreme Court on the CO cake case and I don't think due process arguments were ever mentioned. It was mostly about whether freedom of religion can be used to exempt someone from obeying a secular law. Many of the questions concerned whether the baker's activity should be covered under the exceptions made in the CO law (artistry).
 
And until you have the balls to try and physically take someone's firearm away from them, by yourself, all your talk is just you flapping your cock sucker. :D

As I've noted before, a lot of these gun huggers think of themselves as Chuck Norris when Barney Fife is more appropriate
 
You and I don't disagree. The right to own a weapon is not in dispute. I have never made the claim that one has to be a member of a militia to possess a weapon. The back and forth I have are with posters who wish to interpret the Constitution and BofR in their original intent. I am not an originalist but am framing the argument in THEIR context. Certainly, the founders never required militia membership to possess arms. But the 2nd was clearly written in the context of the militia.

The other argument the pro-gunners propose is the infringement issue, which you have addresses, as if the right to bear arms is limitless. Of course it is not. But extremists like smarterthanyou are unable to understand that. Their response is the always predictable "tyrants in black robes".

You and I will disagree about gun lobbyists such as the NRA. Even after such tragedies as Sandy Hook and Las Vegas, when public sentiment was to do something, dialogue faded fast because "it was too early to talk about gun measures". Who was behind that logic?

The NRA represents the gun owners and supporters. If there were not a large number of voters with very strong opinions the NRA would have little power. It is like the AARP--it is not the organization that has power (they can't even give campaign contributions) but the large number of motivated voters united in their views the organization can mobilize.
 
5 to 4. It should be looked at again. The impact of guns in America has demonstrated the horrors of such a shitty decision. The justices should be able to add up the needless deaths and outrageous carnage.

No doubt it will be overturned someday, but that ain't going to happen for a generation, too many gun supporters who simply flat out deny the facts and legality involved, they are just pawns for the gun industry

There is no legal, constitutional justification for revisiting / overturning Heller.

The justification that existed between 1942 - 2008 -- either the "state's right" or "militia right" legal perversions -- that were used to sustain hundreds of gun control laws, is dead. Dozens and dozens of lower federal court and state court decisions now have no legal footing for their holding, it being abrogated by the High Court. Those decisions by which hundreds of laws were validated, are now infirm.

Both legs of the "collective right" theory have been knocked out. The dissenting Justices recognized this, agreeing that the question of whether the 2nd Amendment protects a collective of individual right is moot, that SCOTUS precedent has always held for the individual right.

Please explain to me the legal argument for overturning Heller.
 
Didn't the 1939 U. S. v. Miller case rule on the basis of the militia argument?

Not in the way you mean. Miller only examined and discussed the type of arm and whether the arm was of a type used in civilized warfare and if it had military usefulness. The Court only heard the government's arguments, there were no briefs filed or argument made on behalf of Miller and Layton discussing the military usefulness of a shotgun with a barrel under 18 inches.

If you want to read an honest assessment of what Miller means, read Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1 st Cir. 1942). It was so brutally honest about the "Miller Rule", that this lower federal court had to dismiss and ignore SCOTUS and invent the "militia right" interpretation to keep federal gun control on the books. I'll quote Cases at the bottom of this post . . . read it and learn how wrong you are or don't, and stay ignorant.

Two things are undeniable, Miller held for the individual right and no SCOTUS opinion on the RKBA / 2ndA has ever embraced any permutation of any collective right theory. It was bullshit devised to justify dismissing and ignoring the Supreme Court -- be happy, it lasted for 66 years.


don't why the different interpretations make any difference in practice since they both allow regulation.

Only because the standard of scrutiny has not been established.

The right to arms has been deemed a fundamental right, laws impacting the core right of being armed for self defense will be held to strict scrutiny. When that happens a wide swath of federal, state and local laws will be going bye-bye . . .




Cases quotes Miller's familiar paragraph and then explains what it means for the government's ability to restrict arms from the citizen (paragraph breaks added):


"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."​

. . . The rule which it laid down was adequate to dispose of the case before it and that we think was as far as the Supreme Court intended to go. At any rate the rule of the Miller case, if intended to be comprehensive and complete would seem to be already outdated, in spite of the fact that it was formulated only three and a half years ago, because of the well known fact that in the so called "Commando Units" some sort of military use seems to have been found for almost any modern lethal weapon.

In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,--almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,--is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute.

Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result.​



This court first admits that the reasoning used to justify the NFA restriction on the sawed-off shotgun is bogus. It then pontificates on what the framers felt about arms restrictions . . . The court offers no legal argument to support its feeling that the framers didn't want to bind government's ability to restrict arms keeping and bearing . . . It just flies right past that. This court, before inventing new rules, even says that the possession and use of the handgun at issue can be said to meet the "Miller rule" . . .



"While the weapon may be capable of military use, or while at least familiarity with it might be regarded as of value in training a person to use a comparable weapon of military type and caliber, still there is no evidence that the appellant was or ever had been a member of any military organization or that his use of the weapon under the circumstances disclosed was in preparation for a military career. In fact, the only inference possible is that the appellant at the time charged in the indictment was in possession of, transporting, and using the firearm and ammunition purely and simply on a frolic of his own and without any thought or intention of contributing to the efficiency of the well regulated militia which the Second Amendment was designed to foster as necessary to the security of a free state. We are of the view that, as applied to the appellant, the Federal Firearms Act does not conflict with the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States."​



And Abracadabra! The "militia right" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is born in the federal courts of the USA!

This court changed the rules. Instead of looking at the type of arm and if it could be used to effect in battle, this court made the mindset and actions of the citizen directly contributing to the efficiency of the militia, the determinate factors for 2nd Amendment protection.

THAT'S what "legislating from the bench" and "judicial activism" looks like.

.
 
Why? What does that decision allow or prevent that couldn't be done before (other than a complete ban of handguns in a federal district). Any regulations that were permissible before that decision are still permissible today. Almost no jurisdictions would actually ban weapons, so the decision affected almost nothing. There was nothing keeping states or local jurisdictions from banning weapons before 2010 and none did so (with limited exceptions applying to blacks).

If that is an explanation of your understanding of 2nd Amendment jurisprudence I now understand your divorced from reality arguments.
 
I understand what you are saying and see your point, but you are trying to make provisions in the 5th Amendment modify rights in the 2nd. I think such modifications would be included in the 2nd.

Interesting but you must have missed where the 5th directly, expressly restricts the rights of due process for some militia members (they being under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ for some crimes).



No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.​


As far as felon arms dispossession after due process and its constitutional justification, perhaps you should read Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55 (1980).


5th Amendment due process cannot be used to restrict speech, press, religion, or any other rights in 1-10.

Sure it can. Felons are forbidden to associate with certain other people or groups, felons are sometimes forbidden to hold employment in the public trust or be elected to public office or vote, felons are sometimes forbidden to use computers or the internet . . .
 
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You’re correct. Nothing does. In fact, Scalia, in the majority opinion, made that very clear.

I did read the competing arguments and am in agreement with the minority. But, of course, that opinion did not prevail.

Which one?

Stevens illogical, precedent ignoring taffy pulling or Bryer's invention of a new standard of scrutiny that would never be used on any other enumerated right?

Understand that on the question of whether the 2nd secures an individual right there were 5 votes yes in the majority and 8 votes yes in the 2 dissents . . .
 
The fifth amendment does not allow constitutional rights to be limited. If so, Congress could pass a law restricting free press, speech, and religion and claim they did it using due process. But we both know Congress cannot limit those freedoms even if the person is a convicted felon. There is certainly nothing in the 2nd or 5th making an exception. Nor can Congress say a felon cannot be president or modify other constitutional provisions unless specifically stated.

I listened to the oral arguments before the Supreme Court on the CO cake case and I don't think due process arguments were ever mentioned. It was mostly about whether freedom of religion can be used to exempt someone from obeying a secular law. Many of the questions concerned whether the baker's activity should be covered under the exceptions made in the CO law (artistry).

Sure it does upon the application of due process. The 5th protects you from ARBITRARY loss.

"Congress could pass a law restricting free press, speech, and religion and claim they did it using due process." That's a prime example of someone that doesn't understand what due process is.

Due process isn't an argument in a court case. It's a process, retard. When the Court said what the bakers did wasn't allowed, they limited their religious freedom and due process was actually going through the case.

When you understand due process, get back to me. Until then, you're either playing stupid or it isn't an act.
 
Sure it can. Felons are forbidden to associate with certain other people or groups, felons are sometimes forbidden to hold employment in the public trust or be elected to public office or vote, felons are sometimes forbidden to use computers or the internet . . .

Employment or holding public office are not constitutional rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Restrictions on association are conditions if you choose to accept parole or probation. If you serve all your sentence no such restrictions exist.
 
Sure it does upon the application of due process. The 5th protects you from ARBITRARY loss.

"Congress could pass a law restricting free press, speech, and religion and claim they did it using due process." That's a prime example of someone that doesn't understand what due process is.

Due process isn't an argument in a court case. It's a process, retard. When the Court said what the bakers did wasn't allowed, they limited their religious freedom and due process was actually going through the case.

When you understand due process, get back to me. Until then, you're either playing stupid or it isn't an act.

No it does not. There is no constitutional right that can be taken away through the due process clause; that is the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights. Congress has the right to regulate firearms and denying felons the right to possess those arms is the same as those with mental problems or abuse--part of that regulatory process. Those rights cannot be denied citizens or noncitizens.

You need to learn some basic constitutional law.
 
The judicial activism in the Heller case was more acceptable, correct?

Did Heller disturb any SCOTUS precedent?

What specifically do you consider judicial activism in Heller?

Surely it can not be the holding that the 2nd Amendment secures an individual right.

In Breyer's minority opinion, the dissenters all agreed that when examining the 2nd Amendment the "starting point . . . based on the Court's precedent and today’s opinions, [which[ the entire Court subscribes, [is that] the 2nd Amendment protects an “individual” right." (of course the dissenters decide to dismiss and ignore the determinations forced by that conclusion)

So, besides the dissenters going off on their goofy tangents, where's the activism?
 
No it does not. There is no constitutional right that can be taken away through the due process clause; that is the entire purpose of the Bill of Rights. Congress has the right to regulate firearms and denying felons the right to possess those arms is the same as those with mental problems or abuse--part of that regulatory process. Those rights cannot be denied citizens or noncitizens.

You need to learn some basic constitutional law.

I'm trying not educate you on it. You refuse to learn.
 
No it does not. There is no constitutional right that can be taken away through the due process clause;

You are correct, the due process clause is not the legal mechanism by which rights disablements are impressed . . . The citizen isn't the entity held to due process, the government and its actions are.

Due process and equal protection are multi-pronged standards or tests that the legal mechanism for instituting the penalty is held to.
 
Employment or holding public office are not constitutional rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. Restrictions on association are conditions if you choose to accept parole or probation. If you serve all your sentence no such restrictions exist.

ah, so this is your problem. you look at the constitution as a document that restricts the people when it is actually a document that restricts the government. your education failed you.
 
Congress has the right to regulate firearms and denying felons the right to possess those arms is the same as those with mental problems or abuse--part of that regulatory process. Those rights cannot be denied citizens or noncitizens.

You need to learn some basic constitutional law.

It is the height of absolute stupidity to believe that the founding fathers and framers of the constitution (let alone ALL of the state delegates and the people that voted) would allow the newly created federal government any shred of power over their firearms after they had just won independence from their former central government that tried to impose power over their firearms.
 
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