Question on guns

If you commit a felony and due process is applied, your 1st, 2nd, etc rights can be limited. That's not taking them away as some might suggest. It's the person choosing to do an action loses the ability to do something else (own guns), it's due to their choice of having done that action.

Your first amendment rights are only limited while you are incarcerated. There is no limitation of 1st amendment rights after you have served your term. Even while incarcerated many of your religious rights are still protected (largely through RFRA) allowing prisoners the use of sweat tents, special diets, etc.

Your 2nd Amendment rights are not just limited for felons since there are many federal and state laws that regulate gun ownership but such limitations do not apply to any other rights.
 
The judiciary is supposed to decide whether a thing is legal and meets constitutional requirements. Lawmakers are a motley crew of people with varying degrees of intelligence and honesty. Declaring a bill legal and constitutional is the function of the court, it is absolutely not activism.

Of course it is activism. Activism is not necessarily a negative (unless you dislike the decision). If the court finds a law unconstitutional that is one of the criteria for activism--substituting judicial decisions for those made by the political (elected) body. That is a good thing if it strikes down a law limiting liberty.

Judicial review is the function of the courts because the Supreme Court said it was--there is nothing in the Constitution to that effect and there is debate about whether it was originally intended. If it was, why wasn't that power included in Article III? On the other hand, if the court does not have that power, there is no limit on what actions the president and Congress can take. Marbury was an ingenious political decision that kept the court from losing an obvious battle while giving itself more power.
 
Your first amendment rights are only limited while you are incarcerated. There is no limitation of 1st amendment rights after you have served your term. Even while incarcerated many of your religious rights are still protected (largely through RFRA) allowing prisoners the use of sweat tents, special diets, etc.

Your 2nd Amendment rights are not just limited for felons since there are many federal and state laws that regulate gun ownership but such limitations do not apply to any other rights.

Typical dumbass answer.
 
Typical dumbass answer.

Typical answer when insults substitute for information. I think you obviously missed the point or ignored it. 2nd amendment is regulated much more than 1st amendment rights by both federal and state governments and 1st amendment rights cannot be taken away (except during incarceration or parole/probation) while 2nd amendment can be taken away forever. You can't take away a person's freedom of speech for a felony, transporting a weapon across state lines, drugs, or dishonorable discharge.

Tip: Insults and obscenity quickly lose their impact when repeated in every post. Try to be civil. Pretend you are religious.
 
Free speech is not absolute. Ever hear of laws against inciting violence? How about Inciting a suicide? Ever hear of libel and slander. Laws exist against obscenity. Also child porn. yep we accept lots of abridgments to other rights. Nothing special about the second. It should be modernized. People with mental disabilities should not be allowed guns. People who have violent histories should be denied. Constitution is silent on automatic weapons and nuclear bombs. I guess we can agree some weapons should be denied. How about anti aircraft guns? Be fun flying if they were allowed . Did the constitution say anything about them?
 
Free speech is not absolute. Ever hear of laws against inciting violence? How about Inciting a suicide? Ever hear of libel and slander. Laws exist against obscenity. Also child porn. yep we accept lots of abridgments to other rights. Nothing special about the second. It should be modernized. People with mental disabilities should not be allowed guns. People who have violent histories should be denied. Constitution is silent on automatic weapons and nuclear bombs. I guess we can agree some weapons should be denied. How about anti aircraft guns? Be fun flying if they were allowed . Did the constitution say anything about them?

I understand, but the issue is whether we can restrict the rights of anybody for committing crimes (such as felons). My point was that the 2nd Amendment is the only right that can limit a person because of a felon, domestic violence, dishonorable discharge, etc.

I never suggested free speech is absolute, but those things that can be restricted are not considered free speech under the 1st Amendment. Free speech was clearly intended to include speech about public issues because that is the type of speech government is most likely to restrict. So, speech which does not include a discussion of public issues that can cause harm can be restricted. Libel (which is press) and slander cannot be prohibited but the person who is harmed can bring a civil suit. If you incite a riot (very rare charge) or suicide you are not prosecuted for your speech unless it was restricted while being spoken. If a riot occurs your speech was not restricted and your are prosecuted for the resulting violence and not speech.

Threats and obscenity are not discussions of public issues and may be restricted; unless the obscenity was used in discussing a public issue (see "Fuck the Draft" case of Cohen v. California).

The 2nd does not need to be modernized because there are already laws prohibiting people with mental disabilities and violent histories from owning guns (the purpose of background checks). It is up to our political bodies to determine what weapons can be prohibited and those vary by state (within constitutional limits).

Free press is probably closest to an absolute right. Government cannot prohibit the press from publishing (prior restraint). Government cannot prohibit the publishing of porn or libel, but they can be published afterward (post restraint). The only exception is publishing material that is a threat to national security and there has never been a case where that has been upheld (example--Pentagon Papers case).
 
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One view of judicial activism is that it substitutes judicial opinion for legislation passed by political bodies.

Yes, in modern times that is the predominant definition. What a political side can't achieve through legislation they think they can institute through (partisan) court decisions.

Some define it as basing decisions on opinions but that basically applies to all decisions.

Yes but it comes down to the explanation of the Court's reasoning.

Decisions are suspect where reasoning is lacking or disconnected from the Constitution, which is what happened in Cases v US. The 3rd Circuit offered naked opinion about what it felt the intention of the framers was and used that to ignore and dismiss the Supreme Court. It laid out a hyperbolic scenario (which is actually true) laying out in detail how strict government impotence is, for regulating the personal arms of the private citizen, and decided that just couldn't happen. Even after admitting that the gun at issue met the protection standard established by SCOTUS, this court changed the rules and created a new standard without any connection to the Constitution or SCOTUS precedent.

I find it interesting you chose to completely ignore my example of activism and not comment on any of my analysis. All you could muster was asking, "The judicial activism in the Heller case was more acceptable, correct?" . . . Which we now see you have no argument to support . . .

Some (not me) even argue any decision ruling a law unconstitutional is activism since there is nothing in the Constitution granting the courts the power of judicial review.

I have no problem with SCOTUS deciding the constitutionality of law. Marbury makes a compelling argument for Supreme Court judicial review and as long as Justices follow the rules set-out in Marbury, there would be limited opportunity for activism. That lower federal courts think they can decide what SCOTUS precedent to dismiss and ignore is what got us the "collective right" theories and hundreds of unconstitutional federal, state and local gun control laws being sustained over 60 some-odd years.

Heller did set a precedent because before it there was no prohibition on D. C. from banning handguns.

Heller reaffirmed SCOTUS precedent on the right to arms and the 2nd Amendment and applied it to the DC statutes and that demanded they be invalidated.

If we are to accept Marbury we must acknowledge that the DC statutes were ALWAYS unconstitutional and void.

This looks like a good time to return to your questions to me that began this sub and my answers, because you failed to address any of it.

Didn't the 1939 U. S. v. Miller case rule on the basis of the militia argument?

Not in the way you mean. Miller only examined and discussed the type of arm and whether the arm was of a type used in civilized warfare and if it had military usefulness. The Court only heard the government's arguments, there were no briefs filed or argument made on behalf of Miller and Layton discussing the military usefulness of a shotgun with a barrel under 18 inches.

If you want to read an honest assessment of what Miller means, read Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1 st Cir. 1942). It was so brutally honest about the "Miller Rule", that this lower federal court had to dismiss and ignore SCOTUS and invent the "militia right" interpretation to keep federal gun control on the books.

Two things are undeniable, Miller held for the individual right and no SCOTUS opinion on the RKBA / 2ndA has ever embraced any permutation of any collective right theory. It was bullshit devised to justify dismissing and ignoring the Supreme Court -- be happy, it lasted for 66 years.

I don't why the different interpretations make any difference in practice since they both allow regulation.

Only because the standard of scrutiny has not been established.

The right to arms has been deemed a fundamental right, laws impacting the core right of being armed for self defense will be held to strict scrutiny. When that happens a wide swath of federal, state and local laws will be going bye-bye . . .
 
Nope. It is pulling a huge future precedence out of a case. It is going beyond the case itself and overruling historical decisions. Simply making a decision is not acticvism. It is their jobs.
 
Yes but it comes down to the explanation of the Court's reasoning.

Decisions are suspect where reasoning is lacking or disconnected from the Constitution, which is what happened in Cases v US. The 3rd Circuit offered naked opinion about what it felt the intention of the framers was and used that to ignore and dismiss the Supreme Court. It laid out a hyperbolic scenario (which is actually true) laying out in detail how strict government impotence is, for regulating the personal arms of the private citizen, and decided that just couldn't happen. Even after admitting that the gun at issue met the protection standard established by SCOTUS, this court changed the rules and created a new standard without any connection to the Constitution or SCOTUS precedent.

I find it interesting you chose to completely ignore my example of activism and not comment on any of my analysis. All you could muster was asking, "The judicial activism in the Heller case was more acceptable, correct?" . . . Which we now see you have no argument to support . . .

You seem to be saying judicial activism is a subjective matter of on'e opinion. For example, Roe v. Wade ties its decision to the Constitution and is logical but certain takes a stretch. My guess is those who support abortion don't think it is activism while those who oppose abortion think it is. That is because we have attached negative rather than simply descriptive connotation to the term.

I didn't say much about your analysis because I am unsure how you apply it to 2nd Amendment issues. I don't know whether you assert that any government can regulate weapons including prohibition of felons. If so, do think any current gun regulations are unconstitutional?
 
Nope. It is pulling a huge future precedence out of a case. It is going beyond the case itself and overruling historical decisions. Simply making a decision is not acticvism. It is their jobs.

Brown v Board overruled historical precedent. Was that judicial activism?
 
You seem to be saying judicial activism is a subjective matter of on'e opinion.

Of course it is; there's no standard or formula other than one's interpretive doctrine and understanding of the Constitution. Whether one's opinion is given any credence is dependent upon one's ability to explain their reasoning in a compelling, convincing manner. Often though, a person's defense can be dismissed out of the box when it is clear they are trying to make the Constitution fit the law instead of explaining how the law conforms to the Constitution. As Marbury said, deciding whether a law is "repugnant to the Constitution" usually isn't as difficult as people think:



"The question, whether an act, repugnant to the constitution, can become the law of the land, is a question deeply interesting to the United States; but, happily, not of an intricacy proportioned to its interest. It seems only necessary to recognise certain principles, supposed to have been long and well established, to decide it.

That the people have an original right to establish, for their future government, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected. The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it nor ought it to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established are deemed fundamental. And as the authority, from which they proceed, is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent.

This original and supreme will organizes the government, and assigns to different departments their respective powers. It may either stop here; or establish certain limits not to be transcended by those departments.

The government of the United States is of the latter description. The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the constitution is written. To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing; if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained? . . . "

MARBURY v. MADISON, 5 U.S. 137 (1803)


And with that in mind, I'm going to jump ahead in your post . . .

I didn't say much about your analysis because I am unsure how you apply it to 2nd Amendment issues. I don't know whether you assert that any government can regulate weapons including prohibition of felons. If so, do think any current gun regulations are unconstitutional?

Well, I believe that SCOTUS has never wavered from the "individual right" interpretation and that the various lower federal court "collective right" interpretations which began in 1942, effectively diverted and delayed the enforcement of the RKBA / 2nd Amendment. The nation lost nearly 70 years with lower federal and state courts acting off the constitutional rails, denying claims of citizens and building a line of legal decisions without any connection to the Constitution that sustained hundreds of illegitimate, unconstitutional federal, state and local gun control laws.

I believe that no power was ever granted to the federal government that would allow it to have any interest whatsoever in the personal arms of the private citizen. The laws written under the commerce clause (and then for 60+ years had their constitutionality defended by arguing the federal power to regulate the militia :palm:) are all extra-constitutional usurpations.

Because so many laws have been sustained on invalid reasoning, the entirety of gun control is questionable. Heller was actually a warning. It was warning federal, state and local authorities to get whatever gun control that is defendable, onto solid constitutional footing. Even such unquestionable laws as felon dispossession has been challenged under Heller.



"As the Government concedes, Heller’s statement regarding the presumptive validity of felon gun dispossession statutes does not foreclose Barton’s as-applied challenge. By describing the felon disarmament ban as “presumptively” lawful, the Supreme Court implied that the presumption may be rebutted."

U.S. v. Barton, 633 F.3d 168 (3d Cir. 2011)

Of course felon disablement of gun rights were/are sustained because they are grounded in legitimate exercises of government authority which have been upheld many times using a wide range of legal reasoning under common and constitutional law.

Now, on the other hand, gun control laws that were upheld by citing Tot or Cases (and their many, many illegitimate progeny) and reasoned upon any theory that the 2nd does not secure an individual right, WILL BE STRUCK DOWN.

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For example, Roe v. Wade ties its decision to the Constitution and is logical but certain takes a stretch.

Well, the right to abortion is a derivative right flowing from the right to privacy. The right to privacy is theorized to be recognized in the "penumbras" and "emanations" of the first eight rights secured in the Bill of Rights. The penumbral rights theory also looks to the 9th Amendment and the principle of innumerable unenumerated rights retained by the people, beyond the reach of government.


"Appellant would discover this right [to abortion] in the concept of personal "liberty" embodied in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause; or in personal, marital, familial, and sexual privacy said to be protected by the Bill of Rights or its penumbras, see Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U. S. 479 (1965); . . . or among those rights reserved to the people by the Ninth Amendment, Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. at 486 (Goldberg, J., concurring)."

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)​


What the penumbral rights theory really is, is a workaround of The Slaughter House Cases (1873) which gutted the "privileges or immunities" clause of the 14th Amendment (which left alone "due process" as the mechanism of recognizing and securing rights -- an absurd and ridiculous notion).

I don't disagree with it as far as it's "ends", but the "means" is a sloppy, clumsy, inefficient path to recognizing and securing unenumerated rights -- which certainly need recognition and protection, it just a lousy way of doing it.

If you want to read a compelling indictment of this "due process" legal gambit and of selective incorporation, and an endorsement of revisiting and overturning The Slaughter House Cases, read Justice Thomas' concurrence in McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010).

My guess is those who support abortion don't think it is activism while those who oppose abortion think it is.

True. I find it more interesting when liberals turn away from what the penumbral rights theory is based on and what it demands (e.g., when arguing for gun control) and we see [dogma directed] conservatives denying the 9th Amendment and what it stands for and stupidly asking, "where's that right in the Constitution?" . . . The issue forces some strange abandonments of principle in both its supporters and detractors -- but I think that is more related to the way the right was recognized.

That is because we have attached negative rather than simply descriptive connotation to the term.

Yes, because the term has been hijacked and its specific, narrow meaning has been expanded to just being a general invective that denotes displeasure in a decision. When "judicial acitivism" is thrown around by partisans, rarely can they compose an argument that explains the departure from the Constitution or precedent. IOW, those who are denouncing it the loudest are usually constitutional ignoramuses on a soapbox. Usually the bleating about "judicial activism" has as deep constitutional thought behind it as "NOT MY PRESIDENT!!!!"
 
Guns in the home make you more likely to die from a gun . They make your home less safe. Lots more accidental shootings, kids killing each other playing with guns, lots more suicides and more families shooting each other. https://www.bradycampaign.org/risks-of-having-a-gun-in-the-home Want your familiy to be safe, don't buy a gun.

That might be true, but does that mean we should deprive people of freedoms in order to reduce those injuries or deaths? Gun laws have become more lenient in recent years as more states have allowed concealed or open carry; yet, homicides have continued to decline for 20+ years.

Accidental gun deaths have also declined in recent years.
 
Have a problem with facts when they dispute your beliefs. Of course you do. Research and data are wrong. Your stubbornness, born lacking information and facts, willl not be moved. Typical gun nut.
 
We should face it, that having a gun in the home makes us more likely to get shot. Just the fact. Guns are sold as protection, yet put your life in more danger. And your family is in more danger. If you choose to risk your families life with weapons, have at it. The right to understanding facts is not in the constitution.
 
We should face it, that having a gun in the home makes us more likely to get shot. Just the fact. Guns are sold as protection, yet put your life in more danger. And your family is in more danger. If you choose to risk your families life with weapons, have at it. The right to understanding facts is not in the constitution.

those poor cops, putting their families lives at so much risk.
 
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