Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

Here's another reality check. Human caused global warming is destroying our planet. At an ever accelerating rate.

Charging a Tesla can be done using a simply 240v outlet drawing 15A. At that rate, will take about 32 hours to fully charge from a fully drained battery.
You can wire in higher current circuits, kind of like wiring a circuit for an arc welder. The maximum charging rate will draw 40A for the Model 3. You will need at last 8 gauge wire on a dedicated 240v circuit, as long as the connector is close to the breaker box. If it has to run some distance, you will need even thicker wire. Most electricians will charge you about $300-$500 to install one. Note this is the same demand as similar to that provided an electric stove. At the maximum rate, you can charge a fully drained Tesla to full charge in 12 hours.

A 100A rated service entrance can handle it, so long as the mains are rated for that limit. Some older breaker boxes and fuse boxes have no main fuse or breaker. These can be susceptible to fire if the combined usage overloads the panel without overloading any single breaker. Such a fire is very dangerous, since it may take some time for the damage to accumulate to the point where the fuse on the transformer would blow (you'll hear a sound like a gunshot out by the power pole). Of course, by that time, the fire will likely have caused extensive damage to your house.

Upgrading your electrical panel is safer, but it is expensive to pay an electrician to do. If you need to upgrade your service entrance to a 200A service, that will rather force the issue anyway. Everything, service entrance secondaries, meter, and distribution panel will all have to be upgraded.

It can be done, but it's not necessarily a trivial circuit to add.

Charging rate and current specifications source: Tesla Automotive Company.
The Chevy Volt doesn't have quite the range, but it's charging characteristics are similar.

 

[Into the Night]

Here's another reality check. Human caused global warming is destroying our planet. At an ever accelerating rate.

Define 'global warming'. It is not possible to measure the temperature of Earth.

 

[Into the Night]

While I may be against battery cars, this is just so wrong, it's wrong.

Some numbers are correct, others are quite wrong.

If you go with the Level 2 charging system this is correct. No home can do a 480 V 3 phase system and the Level 1 120 volt "trickle charge" is worthless. Most homes have a 200 amp service. Many newer homes go to 300 or 400 amps now. That service is single phase, not 3 phase but the power on the street is 3 phase. The full 75 amps is not normally used in charging, but rather is simply the sizing used for installation of the wiring and other devices in the circuit.
The actual charge would be less.

The maximum charging rate for a Model 3 Tesla is 30A. The charger will draw 40A to do this. That's about like adding an electric stove or arc welder circuit. Well within the means of many residential service entrances. Obviously, it should be a dedicated circuit. At least 8 ga wire should be used. I believe the code now requires GFCI protection for things like a car charger now. I'd have to check on that though.

One should note that tankless water heaters take about the same or even more power than this charging unit, and those are frequently installed in homes now too.

That really depends on the water heater. They can require as little as 15A @120V, or they may require as much as 150A @240V for large systems. A better comparison would be like installing a circuit to support an arc welder for MIG or TIG use.

Bottom line, no a few Tesla stations won't overload the system in a typical neighborhood. It would require most of the homes to adopt one before that happens.

It's not about the neighborhood. It's about what that transformer on the pole can provide, and the ratings of the service entrance, including the meter and maximum capability of the distribution panel.

I don't know where this guy lives, but the average price in the US for a kwh--right now, today outside California, Alaska, or Hawaii--is about $0.13. Even the higher priced areas are under $0.20 for the most part. Nowhere is a kilowatt hour costing $1.16. Even in Germany with one of the world's highest electricity prices a kwh doesn't come close to that (it's about $0.35).

According to the EIA, typical rates in 2021 are nowhere near as high as $1.16. The cheapest rate is in Oklahoma, at 8.92 cents per kwh. The most expensive is Hawaii, at 30.55 cents per kwh. The average rate is 12.7 cents per kwh. Therefore, according to the EIA, that claim by MAGA and associated comparisons are just flat wrong. He is correct on the charging times required though.

So, this guy's rant is full of mistakes and bullshit. I still think battery cars are stupid though...

An opinion. It also happens to match my opinion. I'll take gasoline or diesel over battery cars any day. I like the ability to only require five minutes to refuel.

 

[Into the Night]

Nope, it is the future.

Nope. It is the present.

 

[katzgar]

So...no answer, eh? Didn't think you had one. You just want to chant.

perhaps one day you will learn just how stupid you are, after all people have been telling you you are stupid all your life.

 

[Matt Dillon]

perhaps one day you will learn just how stupid you are, after all people have been telling you you are stupid all your life.

You'll be long dead from an overdose before you could see it.

 

[katzgar]

I'll be long dead from an overdose before you could see it.

yup

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Charging a Tesla can be done using a simply 240v outlet drawing 15A. At that rate, will take about 32 hours to fully charge from a fully drained battery.
You can wire in higher current circuits, kind of like wiring a circuit for an arc welder. The maximum charging rate will draw 40A for the Model 3. You will need at last 8 gauge wire on a dedicated 240v circuit, as long as the connector is close to the breaker box. If it has to run some distance, you will need even thicker wire. Most electricians will charge you about $300-$500 to install one. Note this is the same demand as similar to that provided an electric stove. At the maximum rate, you can charge a fully drained Tesla to full charge in 12 hours.

A 100A rated service entrance can handle it, so long as the mains are rated for that limit. Some older breaker boxes and fuse boxes have no main fuse or breaker. These can be susceptible to fire if the combined usage overloads the panel without overloading any single breaker. Such a fire is very dangerous, since it may take some time for the damage to accumulate to the point where the fuse on the transformer would blow (you'll hear a sound like a gunshot out by the power pole). Of course, by that time, the fire will likely have caused extensive damage to your house.

Upgrading your electrical panel is safer, but it is expensive to pay an electrician to do. If you need to upgrade your service entrance to a 200A service, that will rather force the issue anyway. Everything, service entrance secondaries, meter, and distribution panel will all have to be upgraded.

It can be done, but it's not necessarily a trivial circuit to add.

Charging rate and current specifications source: Tesla Automotive Company.
The Chevy Volt doesn't have quite the range, but it's charging characteristics are similar.

Well, this is all wrong... I am a master electrician and I do this stuff all the time.

If the circuit pulls 40 amps 8 is allowed for any length of run until, if calculated, the voltage due to resistance in the wire has caused about a 10% drop. Usually, you do it at around 5%. That only occurs with runs of hundreds of feet like in big industrial buildings. TWH 75 degree wire is rated for 50 amps (table 310.16). But, that's only if the unit is rated at 40 amps. If the nameplate says different, then you wire to that value.

A charging service in an enclosed garage must be more than 24" off the floor of the garage or it will have to be in a class 1 division 1 hazardous location enclosure (NEMA 4X or equivalent). That is grotesquely expensive. This requirement is to avoid potential gasoline vapors in the garage collecting near the floor that could be ignited by a spark from the electrical system. GFI is not required except on receptacles in a garage.

All services require a service disconnect and have since at least the 30's. Even really old Edison fused ones have a service disconnect, usually a fused throw switch or pull block with fuses. Anything from about the late 40's on uses breakers and there is always a main disconnect.

When installing anything new in an existing service the requirement is that the new circuit can be fit into the existing panel, or a sub panel has to be installed. The new circuit, something large like a Tesla charging station, should have a load calc done on it to see if the service can handle it. That may or may not be done depending on who's installing it. If the station is nameplate rated for 75 amps, that's the wire sizing and breaker size you install for. Doesn't matter if it pulls just 40 amps when running normally, you size to the load data provided on the unit or in the manufacturer's provided data.

You also have to meet the requirements in section 625 of the NEC for these.

For welders, they're a bit weird. They have a full load amp rating and a duty cycle. Table 630.11 shows that for the first unit--like in a home-- you size the system to .71 of the full load rating for a typical 50% duty cycle welder. The assumption here is that the welder is operated intermittently so the electric supply won't heat as much as it would if the full load were continuously applied. The overload (eg., breaker rating) must be full load or greater not exceeding twice the load rating. So for a 100 amp welder the wiring can be rated for 71 amps and a 100 amp breaker used, but a larger breaker say a 125 could be used.

For a single welder, you can go with the Ieff off the nameplate if one is provided.

This is required for all types of welding units. If multiple welders are present on a circuit it gets a little more complicated.

A new service runs a couple thousand dollars minimum, and requires permits. If over 200 amps, most jurisdictions will require an engineer's stamp on the drawings for it. That'll run you easily another thousand. Underground upgrades are more expensive because of the trenching and new SE cable having to be installed. Overhead drops end at the weather head on the roof so there is less expense there.

 

[Truth Detector]

Can't read MAGA's post but the instrumentation on those things must be awesome.

Check battery.
Check tire pressure.
Check reality.

^The definition of MORON.

 

[Truth Detector]

Your need to be an opioid addicted moron is revolting

^The definition of.......... I R O N Y!!!

 

[Truth Detector]

Forty years ago there were no cell phone towers.blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

 

[Into the Night]

Well, this is all wrong... I am a master electrician and I do this stuff all the time.

I know you are. Concerning his claim of costs, and the 'overloading' of most service entrances, I agree with you. His figures for the length of time to charge the car is correct, however.

If the circuit pulls 40 amps 8 is allowed for any length of run until, if calculated, the voltage due to resistance in the wire has caused about a 10% drop. Usually, you do it at around 5%. That only occurs with runs of hundreds of feet like in big industrial buildings. TWH 75 degree wire is rated for 50 amps (table 310.16). But, that's only if the unit is rated at 40 amps. If the nameplate says different, then you wire to that value.

As I said.

A charging service in an enclosed garage must be more than 24" off the floor of the garage or it will have to be in a class 1 division 1 hazardous location enclosure (NEMA 4X or equivalent). That is grotesquely expensive. This requirement is to avoid potential gasoline vapors in the garage collecting near the floor that could be ignited by a spark from the electrical system.

Yes. I am aware of that bit in the code as well. Depending on the appliance there, you must also provide iron or concrete posts to protect the appliance if it's permanently installed.

GFI is not required except on receptacles in a garage.

I was unsure about that. Thank you. Some jurisdictions have this additional requirement beyond the NEC.

All services require a service disconnect and have since at least the 30's.

The 'service disconnect' is pulling the meter on many houses built in the 70's. The other is pulling the fuse on the transformer. Your particular jurisdiction may be required it that early, but not the NEC at the time. It's in there now, of course. Quote sensible!

Even really old Edison fused ones have a service disconnect, usually a fused throw switch or pull block with fuses. Anything from about the late 40's on uses breakers and there is always a main disconnect.

Nope. Not always!

When installing anything new in an existing service the requirement is that the new circuit can be fit into the existing panel, or a sub panel has to be installed.

Yup.

The new circuit, something large like a Tesla charging station, should have a load calc done on it to see if the service can handle it. That may or may not be done depending on who's installing it. If the station is nameplate rated for 75 amps, that's the wire sizing and breaker size you install for. Doesn't matter if it pulls just 40 amps when running normally, you size to the load data provided on the unit or in the manufacturer's provided data.

Tesla charging stations can be switch for different charging rates. The installing electrician can set this switch to any of several choices. The user can't.

You also have to meet the requirements in section 625 of the NEC for these.

True.

For welders, they're a bit weird. They have a full load amp rating and a duty cycle. Table 630.11 shows that for the first unit--like in a home-- you size the system to .71 of the full load rating for a typical 50% duty cycle welder. The assumption here is that the welder is operated intermittently so the electric supply won't heat as much as it would if the full load were continuously applied. The overload (eg., breaker rating) must be full load or greater not exceeding twice the load rating. So for a 100 amp welder the wiring can be rated for 71 amps and a 100 amp breaker used, but a larger breaker say a 125 could be used.

That's about right. They also draw differently depending on whether it's a 120v or 240v welder.

For a single welder, you can go with the Ieff off the nameplate if one is provided.

That nameplate is required on all welders.

This is required for all types of welding units. If multiple welders are present on a circuit it gets a little more complicated.

That it does! Fortunately, that sort of thing tends to occur in businesses where a larger service entrance has been installed.

A new service runs a couple thousand dollars minimum, and requires permits.

That's about right. It's usually more, depending on the extent of the modifications required or desired by the end user.

If over 200 amps, most jurisdictions will require an engineer's stamp on the drawings for it. That'll run you easily another thousand.

Indeed it does!

Underground upgrades are more expensive because of the trenching and new SE cable having to be installed.

The trenching itself has new requirements too. There are expanded clearances required between electrical lines and gas, sewer, communications, and water lines, and the warning tape is now required. Depth requirements haven't changed though.

Overhead drops end at the weather head on the roof so there is less expense there.

Very true. It can add up, if some other building or tree changes the routing path due to clearance requirements to get to the weather head.

 

[David Jeffrey Spetch]

REALITY CHECK: At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious "If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities."

"For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load."

So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this deadend road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So, the Government wants us to pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!

Yeah globalists are pieces of shit, old news ...

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Go invest in that industry then. Someone has to be the fool that will invest in a company that will get sued out of existence.

they call that the dumb money.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

seems like into the night and ta gardner are good people to know in the end times.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[katzgar]

what happens when a moron like you is too meth delusional to use a search engine? https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...run-out-of-power-on-the-road/?sh=420d83253e48 you are too fucking stupid to think of triple A

 

[Nordberg]

REALITY CHECK: At a neighborhood BBQ I was talking to a neighbor, a BC Hydro Executive. I asked him how that renewable thing was doing. He laughed, then got serious "If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities."

"For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On our small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a single Tesla each. For even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded. This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Our residential infrastructure cannot bear the load."

So, as our genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are we being urged to buy these things and replace our reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive new windmills and solar cells, but we will also have to renovate our entire delivery system! This later "investment" will not be revealed until we're so far down this deadend road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS...!' and a shrug.

Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine." Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned, so I looked up what I pay for electricity.

I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 Mpg = $0.10 per mile.

The gasoline powered car costs about $25,000 while the Volt costs $46,000 plus. So, the Government wants us to pay twice as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run and takes three times longer to drive across the country.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!

They do not make Volts anymore and they were in the small 30s. The article I read talked about the cost of the chargers. They come with the car. He used it repeatedly too. Chargers are a one-time thing. You cannot put that cost into the yearly costs of electric.
The hidden cost of ICEs is pollution and the illnesses that they spread. Asthma, lung disease and many more are exacerbated by car and oil pollution Add this cost in. .https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/air-pollution/index.cfm

 

[Into the Night]

what happens when a moron like you is too meth delusional to use a search engine? https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...run-out-of-power-on-the-road/?sh=420d83253e48 you are too fucking stupid to think of triple A

So...you expect AAA to come with a bucket of electricity??

 

[Into the Night]

They do not make Volts anymore and they were in the small 30s. The article I read talked about the cost of the chargers. They come with the car. He used it repeatedly too. Chargers are a one-time thing. You cannot put that cost into the yearly costs of electric.
The hidden cost of ICEs is pollution and the illnesses that they spread. Asthma, lung disease and many more are exacerbated by car and oil pollution Add this cost in. .https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/air-pollution/index.cfm

How is 'car' a pollutant?? How is oil a pollutant? Asthma exacerbates asthma. What lung disease are you referring to (there are many diseases that affect the lung).

How do you define a cost to something you can't even define???